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	<title>Comments for Will Wilkinson</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Marketplace Commentaries by Polish auto</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/selected-essays-and-reviews/marketplace-commentaries/#comment-28207</link>
		<dc:creator>Polish auto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?page_id=1556#comment-28207</guid>
		<description>greetz will</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>greetz will</p>
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		<title>Comment on If You Love Truth So Much, Why Not Give Up Stories? by Rad Geek</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/08/if-you-love-truth-so-much-why-not-give-up-stories/#comment-28203</link>
		<dc:creator>Rad Geek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 23:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5741#comment-28203</guid>
		<description>Well, &quot;gotcha!&quot; I guess, but surely it matters that religions (at least, the kinds of religion that Hanson was asking about to begin with) purport to be true, while novels, movies, et cetera do not. People who tried to answer the prior question about religious belief in good faith pretty generally were aware that people who are religious &lt;em&gt;believe in&lt;/em&gt; religions in specific ways that people who enjoy fiction definitely don&#039;t &quot;believe in&quot; the stories they enjoy, and that religious commitment directly involves making assertions about the world that enjoyment of a story obviously does not. (Suppose that Hanson had asked, not about whether people ought to give up being religious, but whether people ought to give up reading Bible stories as literature, or Paradise Lost, or The Almighty Thor; I&#039;ll bet that the answers would have been rather different.)

It may be that reading stories has, as a side-effect, an increased probability of believing something else which is false, even though it doesn&#039;t involve any belief in the fiction itself. (People who read a lot of novels may be more inclined to believe in something false even though they don&#039;t believe in the truth of the novels they read -- say that life is going to tend to work out more like a novel than it really tends to.) If so, that&#039;s sad. But saying that people who care about truth &lt;em&gt;should never believe things they have no reason to believe&lt;/em&gt; is a rather different claim from saying that people who care about truth &lt;em&gt;should never do things that could possibly expose them to an increased risk of error in other, not logically related beliefs.&lt;/em&gt; (Drinking whiskey will no doubt do that too, but if the argument had gone from abandoning religion to teatotaling this would quite rightly be seen as a really gross sort of bait-and-switch.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, &#8220;gotcha!&#8221; I guess, but surely it matters that religions (at least, the kinds of religion that Hanson was asking about to begin with) purport to be true, while novels, movies, et cetera do not. People who tried to answer the prior question about religious belief in good faith pretty generally were aware that people who are religious <em>believe in</em> religions in specific ways that people who enjoy fiction definitely don&#8217;t &#8220;believe in&#8221; the stories they enjoy, and that religious commitment directly involves making assertions about the world that enjoyment of a story obviously does not. (Suppose that Hanson had asked, not about whether people ought to give up being religious, but whether people ought to give up reading Bible stories as literature, or Paradise Lost, or The Almighty Thor; I&#8217;ll bet that the answers would have been rather different.)</p>
<p>It may be that reading stories has, as a side-effect, an increased probability of believing something else which is false, even though it doesn&#8217;t involve any belief in the fiction itself. (People who read a lot of novels may be more inclined to believe in something false even though they don&#8217;t believe in the truth of the novels they read &#8212; say that life is going to tend to work out more like a novel than it really tends to.) If so, that&#8217;s sad. But saying that people who care about truth <em>should never believe things they have no reason to believe</em> is a rather different claim from saying that people who care about truth <em>should never do things that could possibly expose them to an increased risk of error in other, not logically related beliefs.</em> (Drinking whiskey will no doubt do that too, but if the argument had gone from abandoning religion to teatotaling this would quite rightly be seen as a really gross sort of bait-and-switch.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sadness of Stay-at-Home Moms by Eric Barnhill</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/18/the-sadness-of-stay-at-home-moms/#comment-28200</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Barnhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2012 12:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5773#comment-28200</guid>
		<description>The sadness of anyone who would choose whether or not to start a family based on things like polling data, and the simplistic, low-dimensional narratives people cook out of polling data to make headlines, research publications, or blog posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sadness of anyone who would choose whether or not to start a family based on things like polling data, and the simplistic, low-dimensional narratives people cook out of polling data to make headlines, research publications, or blog posts.</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by Kathleen Hubert</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/about/#comment-28194</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathleen Hubert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 15:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/about/#comment-28194</guid>
		<description>Hello,

I was wondering if you accept guest post for your blog. If you do, I would like to submit a few. I&#039;m a recent college graduate, with an English major, looking to build out my portfolio. I can write on a wide variety of topics and am sure you would be happy with the quality. Please email me back if you are interested. Thank you for your time.


- Kathleen Hubert
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002374243662</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,</p>
<p>I was wondering if you accept guest post for your blog. If you do, I would like to submit a few. I&#8217;m a recent college graduate, with an English major, looking to build out my portfolio. I can write on a wide variety of topics and am sure you would be happy with the quality. Please email me back if you are interested. Thank you for your time.</p>
<p>- Kathleen Hubert<br />
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002374243662" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002374243662</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Hop on the Welfare Wagon! by cas</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/14/hop-on-the-welfare-wagon/#comment-28192</link>
		<dc:creator>cas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 12:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5769#comment-28192</guid>
		<description>When did THIS thing get published?!  and why did DC Comics allow the &quot;Superman&quot; brand to be used by the gov&#039;t in such a blatant socialist message?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When did THIS thing get published?!  and why did DC Comics allow the &#8220;Superman&#8221; brand to be used by the gov&#8217;t in such a blatant socialist message?!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Steve Horwitz on Corporate Personhood by Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/07/steve-horwitz-on-corporate-personhood/#comment-28182</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 22:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5734#comment-28182</guid>
		<description>Genuine question: if the government taxes you, how is it not taxing your cells?

Now, some of your cells may bear the burden more than others, eg if you pay your taxes by maintaining your food consumption unchanged, but cutting back on your entertainment budget, the change might affect your brain cells more than your leg cells. But I don&#039;t see how it avoids taxing your cells, in the sense of making some of your cells do without things they would otherwise have had. (Of course, if the government is efficient then what it spends the tax money on should more than make up for it). 

As Glen says, the fallacy of division is an informal one, sometimes for something to be true of the whole it must be true of some of the parts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Genuine question: if the government taxes you, how is it not taxing your cells?</p>
<p>Now, some of your cells may bear the burden more than others, eg if you pay your taxes by maintaining your food consumption unchanged, but cutting back on your entertainment budget, the change might affect your brain cells more than your leg cells. But I don&#8217;t see how it avoids taxing your cells, in the sense of making some of your cells do without things they would otherwise have had. (Of course, if the government is efficient then what it spends the tax money on should more than make up for it). </p>
<p>As Glen says, the fallacy of division is an informal one, sometimes for something to be true of the whole it must be true of some of the parts.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Steve Horwitz on Corporate Personhood by DWAnderson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/07/steve-horwitz-on-corporate-personhood/#comment-28176</link>
		<dc:creator>DWAnderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 03:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5734#comment-28176</guid>
		<description>People are sentient. Cells are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People are sentient. Cells are not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Narrative vs. Truth by Michael Drake</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/11/narrative-vs-truth/#comment-28175</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 14:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5765#comment-28175</guid>
		<description>&quot;Just as we are wired to like a diet rich in fats and sugars, we have an appetite for simple, coherent narratives.&quot;

That seems like a pretty simple and coherent narrative. And yet...&lt;i&gt;it&#039;s true&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Just as we are wired to like a diet rich in fats and sugars, we have an appetite for simple, coherent narratives.&#8221;</p>
<p>That seems like a pretty simple and coherent narrative. And yet&#8230;<i>it&#8217;s true</i>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Narrative vs. Truth by Ben Pierce</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/11/narrative-vs-truth/#comment-28174</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 13:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5765#comment-28174</guid>
		<description>Any legislative change represents a &quot;splash of sugar water&quot; for those predisposed to test the edges of excessive greed.  It&#039;s not good for them, and we end up paying for their financial diabetic coma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any legislative change represents a &#8220;splash of sugar water&#8221; for those predisposed to test the edges of excessive greed.  It&#8217;s not good for them, and we end up paying for their financial diabetic coma.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Grover Cleveland on the Communisms of Capital and Toil by Adrian T</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/07/grover-cleveland-on-the-communisms-of-capital-and-toil/#comment-28171</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 22:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5709#comment-28171</guid>
		<description>You still read Reason, Will? I like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You still read Reason, Will? I like that.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If You Love Truth So Much, Why Not Give Up Stories? by Molly</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/08/if-you-love-truth-so-much-why-not-give-up-stories/#comment-28170</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 21:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5741#comment-28170</guid>
		<description>Yes, the Christian canon contains all sorts of awfulness. Sometimes a different reading or understanding can soften the repulsion but sometimes not. It does not bother me that such vileness is contained in the Bible. The Bible is a library of human experience. People are capable of great cruelty. What appalls me are hateful, oppressive denials of basic human dignity carried out in the name of Jesus with scripture used as a justification. The best remedy, I believe, is to occupy the sanctuary rather that run screaming from the pews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the Christian canon contains all sorts of awfulness. Sometimes a different reading or understanding can soften the repulsion but sometimes not. It does not bother me that such vileness is contained in the Bible. The Bible is a library of human experience. People are capable of great cruelty. What appalls me are hateful, oppressive denials of basic human dignity carried out in the name of Jesus with scripture used as a justification. The best remedy, I believe, is to occupy the sanctuary rather that run screaming from the pews.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If You Love Truth So Much, Why Not Give Up Stories? by Trond</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/08/if-you-love-truth-so-much-why-not-give-up-stories/#comment-28169</link>
		<dc:creator>Trond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 20:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5741#comment-28169</guid>
		<description>What you describe is about as close to being religious as I can manage. I wouldn&#039;t describe myself as Christian, however, so much as inspired by some of the stories and rituals associated with Christianity*. Much as I am by certain literature, other faiths, and natural phenomenon.

I&#039;m don&#039;t agree with you on the difference in quality between contemporary and historic or religious stories, although I certainly agree that a lot of contemporary entertainment is mindless and silly. Seems that this may be a matter of taste.

Back to Robin&#039;s question - I think it poses a false comparison. Giving up religion because of truth is an example of someone giving up a literal belief in the face of knowledge. But very few people hold literal belief in most stories, so there&#039;s no reason that learning that the stories are fictional should affect them in any way. It shouldn&#039;t be news to anyone that Gandalf doesn&#039;t exist, but what does that matter?

Where the use of truth to undermine religion gets challenging is when you&#039;re dealing with people who treat religion as a collection of inspiring allegory and useful rituals that help them improve their life in some way. That is, like you (and me), they hold no literal belief, and so arguments asserting the falseness of Christian beliefs should have no effect on them. There&#039;s nothing intrinsically contradictory about being inspired by a fiction.

* I say &quot;some&quot; with intent - the Christian canon contains much that is inspiring and good, but it also contains some things I find repugnant, at least in their plain reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you describe is about as close to being religious as I can manage. I wouldn&#8217;t describe myself as Christian, however, so much as inspired by some of the stories and rituals associated with Christianity*. Much as I am by certain literature, other faiths, and natural phenomenon.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m don&#8217;t agree with you on the difference in quality between contemporary and historic or religious stories, although I certainly agree that a lot of contemporary entertainment is mindless and silly. Seems that this may be a matter of taste.</p>
<p>Back to Robin&#8217;s question &#8211; I think it poses a false comparison. Giving up religion because of truth is an example of someone giving up a literal belief in the face of knowledge. But very few people hold literal belief in most stories, so there&#8217;s no reason that learning that the stories are fictional should affect them in any way. It shouldn&#8217;t be news to anyone that Gandalf doesn&#8217;t exist, but what does that matter?</p>
<p>Where the use of truth to undermine religion gets challenging is when you&#8217;re dealing with people who treat religion as a collection of inspiring allegory and useful rituals that help them improve their life in some way. That is, like you (and me), they hold no literal belief, and so arguments asserting the falseness of Christian beliefs should have no effect on them. There&#8217;s nothing intrinsically contradictory about being inspired by a fiction.</p>
<p>* I say &#8220;some&#8221; with intent &#8211; the Christian canon contains much that is inspiring and good, but it also contains some things I find repugnant, at least in their plain reading.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Democracy Works, So Government Sucks by Bad government is our fault. &#124; The Thinker</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/08/democracy-works-so-government-sucks/#comment-28168</link>
		<dc:creator>Bad government is our fault. &#124; The Thinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2012 12:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5744#comment-28168</guid>
		<description>[...] HT to Will Wilkinson. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HT to Will Wilkinson. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Steve Horwitz on Corporate Personhood by ps</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/07/steve-horwitz-on-corporate-personhood/#comment-28163</link>
		<dc:creator>ps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 19:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5734#comment-28163</guid>
		<description>&quot;If we take away union rights, we take away the rights of individual union members.&quot;
But we know that union leaders do not always represent the interests of union members. Thus, vast sums of union money are given to support the Democrats, despite a large percentage of union members who have different political preferences. Union leaders are also more concerned about building their own power and lining their own pockets than they are about the livelihoods of union members. They do just enough to please the rank-and-file, without necessarily providing wise leadership that leads to long-term benefits. Witness the loss of many industries that have moved overseas because union demands made it impossible for businesses to operate at a profit.
So yes, the argument is based on a logical fallacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we take away union rights, we take away the rights of individual union members.&#8221;<br />
But we know that union leaders do not always represent the interests of union members. Thus, vast sums of union money are given to support the Democrats, despite a large percentage of union members who have different political preferences. Union leaders are also more concerned about building their own power and lining their own pockets than they are about the livelihoods of union members. They do just enough to please the rank-and-file, without necessarily providing wise leadership that leads to long-term benefits. Witness the loss of many industries that have moved overseas because union demands made it impossible for businesses to operate at a profit.<br />
So yes, the argument is based on a logical fallacy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If You Love Truth So Much, Why Not Give Up Stories? by Molly</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2012/05/08/if-you-love-truth-so-much-why-not-give-up-stories/#comment-28162</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2012 18:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=5741#comment-28162</guid>
		<description>Interesting. (For lack of space I will skip the social status implications raised and jump straight into apologetics.)

One of the reasons I am a Christian is because I find the stories so potent. As a multi-cultural library of oral histories, the Bible is littered with resonant stories. Deliciously, later writers reference what has come before, casting meaning through the lens of their own contemporary experience. We add an additional layer by reading these parables in the present tense. Conversely, today&#039;s fiction and television generally disappoint. Contemporary narratives often lack the prismatic quality of religious texts, perhaps as a result of being worked over by fewer writers.

Being &quot;faithful&quot; does not require a suspension of disbelief. While I, as a devout, church-going, Christian do not believe in the literal truth of someone becoming un-dead, the metaphor of resurrection is in itself truthful and compelling. (E.g.: resurrection as a comment about how our ideas and actions can flourish beyond our own mortality; resurrection as a reminder that things sometimes change radically for the better just as we give up hope.) Similarly, the horn blows that sent the walls of Jericho tumbling down reveal the truth of the transcendent power of collective action- be it genocidal or philanthropic. Religiosity is not an abdication of reason, it is an embrace of the power of parable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. (For lack of space I will skip the social status implications raised and jump straight into apologetics.)</p>
<p>One of the reasons I am a Christian is because I find the stories so potent. As a multi-cultural library of oral histories, the Bible is littered with resonant stories. Deliciously, later writers reference what has come before, casting meaning through the lens of their own contemporary experience. We add an additional layer by reading these parables in the present tense. Conversely, today&#8217;s fiction and television generally disappoint. Contemporary narratives often lack the prismatic quality of religious texts, perhaps as a result of being worked over by fewer writers.</p>
<p>Being &#8220;faithful&#8221; does not require a suspension of disbelief. While I, as a devout, church-going, Christian do not believe in the literal truth of someone becoming un-dead, the metaphor of resurrection is in itself truthful and compelling. (E.g.: resurrection as a comment about how our ideas and actions can flourish beyond our own mortality; resurrection as a reminder that things sometimes change radically for the better just as we give up hope.) Similarly, the horn blows that sent the walls of Jericho tumbling down reveal the truth of the transcendent power of collective action- be it genocidal or philanthropic. Religiosity is not an abdication of reason, it is an embrace of the power of parable.</p>
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