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	<title>Comments on: New at Cato Unbound: Lott Replies to Loury</title>
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	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Virus Protection</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23461</link>
		<dc:creator>Virus Protection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23461</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link mate.. It was really informative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link mate.. It was really informative.</p>
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		<title>By: joshspyker</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23460</link>
		<dc:creator>joshspyker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23460</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link mate.. It was really informative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link mate.. It was really informative.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Malloy</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23459</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Malloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23459</guid>
		<description>There are only two real reasonable purposes I can see for prisons: The first is deterrence, and the second is to sequester dangerous people away from society. But being dangerous is a biological condition. Women aren’t dangerous, and old people aren’t dangerous., but some young, low status, unmarried men get very dangerous. The difference is entirely biological. And if the problem is biological, the solution can be biological. In fact, we already pretty much have this solution: it’s called &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/11/world/europe/11castrate.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;chemical castration&lt;/a&gt;, and it virtually kills recidivism among sexual offenders. I know of no studies for its effects on other kinds of violent offenders, but the null assumption is the effects would be similar. Sexual offenses and other violent offenses stem from the same &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Murderer-Next-Door-Mind-Designed/dp/1594200432&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;psychological pathway of impulses&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So here is a modern alternative to prison: If an offender is sentenced to, say, 5 years in prison, they will be offered the choice to either serve their time, or to remain free if they volunteer for the reversible regimen of feminizing chemicals for a time equal to their sentencing. Basically an updated form of probation for more serious crimes. Another option might even be total freedom in exchange for surgical castration. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;While this type of option raises the cruel-and-unusual flag for some, the major concern it creates is the exact opposite for me: while it would no doubt prevent future crimes from the castrated person himself, the castration penalty is so &lt;i&gt;non-threatening&lt;/i&gt;, so &lt;i&gt;un-cruel&lt;/i&gt; compared to prison that it would probably also raise crime in the general population by serving as a “get out of murder free card” for many others. Pre-op transsexuals would basically get a free murder card. And many men, I’m sure, would gladly give up their own testicles for the murder of their choice.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The balance is probably still in favor of the castration option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are only two real reasonable purposes I can see for prisons: The first is deterrence, and the second is to sequester dangerous people away from society. But being dangerous is a biological condition. Women aren’t dangerous, and old people aren’t dangerous., but some young, low status, unmarried men get very dangerous. The difference is entirely biological. And if the problem is biological, the solution can be biological. In fact, we already pretty much have this solution: it’s called <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/11/world/europe/11castrate.html" rel="nofollow">chemical castration</a>, and it virtually kills recidivism among sexual offenders. I know of no studies for its effects on other kinds of violent offenders, but the null assumption is the effects would be similar. Sexual offenses and other violent offenses stem from the same <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Murderer-Next-Door-Mind-Designed/dp/1594200432" rel="nofollow">psychological pathway of impulses</a>.</p>
<p>So here is a modern alternative to prison: If an offender is sentenced to, say, 5 years in prison, they will be offered the choice to either serve their time, or to remain free if they volunteer for the reversible regimen of feminizing chemicals for a time equal to their sentencing. Basically an updated form of probation for more serious crimes. Another option might even be total freedom in exchange for surgical castration. </p>
<p>While this type of option raises the cruel-and-unusual flag for some, the major concern it creates is the exact opposite for me: while it would no doubt prevent future crimes from the castrated person himself, the castration penalty is so <i>non-threatening</i>, so <i>un-cruel</i> compared to prison that it would probably also raise crime in the general population by serving as a “get out of murder free card” for many others. Pre-op transsexuals would basically get a free murder card. And many men, I’m sure, would gladly give up their own testicles for the murder of their choice.</p>
<p>The balance is probably still in favor of the castration option.</p>
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		<title>By: alphie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23458</link>
		<dc:creator>alphie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23458</guid>
		<description>I offerred up my post in the spirit of Karl Popper and his black swan, John.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Stewart vs. Cramer has got me worried that every &quot;fact&quot; you see presented in the news and the internet is really just self-interested piffle.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Whenever possible, I&#039;m going to try to look at the raw data instead of someone&#039;s interpretation of what it means from now on.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If that makes me a cherry-picker too, well...call me Red Fingers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I offerred up my post in the spirit of Karl Popper and his black swan, John.</p>
<p>Stewart vs. Cramer has got me worried that every &#8220;fact&#8221; you see presented in the news and the internet is really just self-interested piffle.</p>
<p>Whenever possible, I&#39;m going to try to look at the raw data instead of someone&#39;s interpretation of what it means from now on.</p>
<p>If that makes me a cherry-picker too, well&#8230;call me Red Fingers.</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23457</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23457</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Isn&#039;t that cherry-picking defined?&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Yes, he was cherry-picking by using the previous survey that had a very low number for sexual assault.  All my complaints about using it stand for him as well.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I didn&#039;t say that he wasn&#039;t cherry-picking.  I said that you two were engaging in it as well.  Is it right to cherry-pick because he was?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Isn&#39;t that cherry-picking defined?</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, he was cherry-picking by using the previous survey that had a very low number for sexual assault.  All my complaints about using it stand for him as well.</p>
<p>I didn&#39;t say that he wasn&#39;t cherry-picking.  I said that you two were engaging in it as well.  Is it right to cherry-pick because he was?</p>
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		<title>By: alphie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23456</link>
		<dc:creator>alphie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23456</guid>
		<description>John,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Lott himself calls out the &quot;low&quot; sexual assault rate in the U.S. as proof America should be locking up even more brown, scary people:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;The International Crime Victimization Survey (ICVS) indicates that for the violent crime categories of sexual assault, robbery and aggravated assault,  the U.S. looks remarkably safe. [3]  This is even truer for the more serious categories of sexual assault and robbery.  Prison is costly, but one could only imagine how much higher American crimes rates would be without it.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Lott took data from a report that surveyed 10 crimes in 28 countries over 5 years and picked 3 crimes, 8 countries and 1 year to &quot;prove&quot; his point.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I could easily take a different narrow slice of data from the same report Lott used and &quot;prove&quot; exactly the opposite of what he is arguing.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Isn&#039;t that cherry-picking defined?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Lott himself calls out the &#8220;low&#8221; sexual assault rate in the U.S. as proof America should be locking up even more brown, scary people:</p>
<p>&#8220;The International Crime Victimization Survey (ICVS) indicates that for the violent crime categories of sexual assault, robbery and aggravated assault,  the U.S. looks remarkably safe. [3]  This is even truer for the more serious categories of sexual assault and robbery.  Prison is costly, but one could only imagine how much higher American crimes rates would be without it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Lott took data from a report that surveyed 10 crimes in 28 countries over 5 years and picked 3 crimes, 8 countries and 1 year to &#8220;prove&#8221; his point.</p>
<p>I could easily take a different narrow slice of data from the same report Lott used and &#8220;prove&#8221; exactly the opposite of what he is arguing.</p>
<p>Isn&#39;t that cherry-picking defined?</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23455</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23455</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d say that the two of you are engaging in your own cherry-picking.&lt;br&gt;The report indicates that the US overall victimization rate is near the average.   &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The 2003-2004 survey (table 12) puts the U.S. sexual assault rate at the very top of all countries surveyed, for example.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Of course, as the ICVS &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://rechten.uvt.nl/icvs/pdffiles/ICVS2004_05.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;report itself notes&lt;/A&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Measuring sexual offences has proven to be difficult because of cultural&lt;br&gt;differences in what type of behaviour is perceived by female respondents&lt;br&gt;to constitute an offence.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;and later on page 77&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The ICVS measures on sexual violence,&lt;br&gt;then, need to be interpreted with more than usual caution.  An additional&lt;br&gt;reason to exercise great caution is the recurrent finding that rates of sexual&lt;br&gt;offences of countries are less stable over the years than those of other&lt;br&gt;types of crime. This finding may indicate that responses to the question&lt;br&gt;on sexual incidents are susceptible to events or media campaigns that&lt;br&gt;may have temporarily raised awareness about this issue.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They also note that there&#039;s a particularly low response rate and low rates on these numbers (for sexual assault), and that some results on the raw numbers contradict wider, more detailed studies.  (Such as developing countries have relatively more partner abuse than developed countries.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also note that the US swung from very low in sexual assault in 1999 to high, whereas Estonia plunged from very very high to low.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The US also has a low pickpocketing rate, especially, to go with the low robbery rate.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Interesting cherry-picking argument, arguing that every low crime rate for the US is random or an artifact, and then focusing on the high ones.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But in any case, the US has long had a history of high violent crimes and of locking people up.  None of that means that the two things cause each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;d say that the two of you are engaging in your own cherry-picking.<br />The report indicates that the US overall victimization rate is near the average.   </p>
<blockquote><p>The 2003-2004 survey (table 12) puts the U.S. sexual assault rate at the very top of all countries surveyed, for example.</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, as the ICVS <a HREF="http://rechten.uvt.nl/icvs/pdffiles/ICVS2004_05.pdf" rel="nofollow">report itself notes</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Measuring sexual offences has proven to be difficult because of cultural<br />differences in what type of behaviour is perceived by female respondents<br />to constitute an offence.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>and later on page 77</p>
<blockquote><p>The ICVS measures on sexual violence,<br />then, need to be interpreted with more than usual caution.  An additional<br />reason to exercise great caution is the recurrent finding that rates of sexual<br />offences of countries are less stable over the years than those of other<br />types of crime. This finding may indicate that responses to the question<br />on sexual incidents are susceptible to events or media campaigns that<br />may have temporarily raised awareness about this issue.</p></blockquote>
<p>They also note that there&#39;s a particularly low response rate and low rates on these numbers (for sexual assault), and that some results on the raw numbers contradict wider, more detailed studies.  (Such as developing countries have relatively more partner abuse than developed countries.)</p>
<p>Also note that the US swung from very low in sexual assault in 1999 to high, whereas Estonia plunged from very very high to low.</p>
<p>The US also has a low pickpocketing rate, especially, to go with the low robbery rate.</p>
<p>Interesting cherry-picking argument, arguing that every low crime rate for the US is random or an artifact, and then focusing on the high ones.</p>
<p>But in any case, the US has long had a history of high violent crimes and of locking people up.  None of that means that the two things cause each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23454</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23454</guid>
		<description>Nice work. I&#039;d call Lott&#039;s claims on crime rates totally busted. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It is interesting that the US does have a relatively low robbery rate (right now). But with the sexual assault rate the highest, and the assault/threat rate also pretty high, the low robbery rate could just be random or an artifact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work. I&#39;d call Lott&#39;s claims on crime rates totally busted. </p>
<p>It is interesting that the US does have a relatively low robbery rate (right now). But with the sexual assault rate the highest, and the assault/threat rate also pretty high, the low robbery rate could just be random or an artifact.</p>
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		<title>By: Curt</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23453</link>
		<dc:creator>Curt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23453</guid>
		<description>Common to all three arguments is the supposition that social planners can get the level of punishment right by just consulting enough data.   But like a Soviet planner who&#039;s trying to set the correct price for wheat, it&#039;s not clear how one ought to go about doing this.  Absent the utility function that can only exist in a market in legal systems, what other rational standard do Loury, Lott, and Wilson propose for fixing punishments?   Until this problem is solved, I fear we&#039;re doomed to continue talking past one another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Common to all three arguments is the supposition that social planners can get the level of punishment right by just consulting enough data.   But like a Soviet planner who&#39;s trying to set the correct price for wheat, it&#39;s not clear how one ought to go about doing this.  Absent the utility function that can only exist in a market in legal systems, what other rational standard do Loury, Lott, and Wilson propose for fixing punishments?   Until this problem is solved, I fear we&#39;re doomed to continue talking past one another.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/13/new-at-cato-unbound-lott-replies-to-loury/#comment-23452</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3186#comment-23452</guid>
		<description>I guess that I don&#039;t understand your point against Lott because he says that he opposed the higher crack cocaine penalties and he also raises the issue of legalizing drugs and mentions that Loury is the person who doesn&#039;t want legalization.  Loury seems to want the criminal penalties for drugs but wants them to be progressive.  Doubly doubly silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess that I don&#39;t understand your point against Lott because he says that he opposed the higher crack cocaine penalties and he also raises the issue of legalizing drugs and mentions that Loury is the person who doesn&#39;t want legalization.  Loury seems to want the criminal penalties for drugs but wants them to be progressive.  Doubly doubly silly.</p>
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