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	<title>Comments on: Hey Kids! Transactions Costs!</title>
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	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: AnotherGerman</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22409</link>
		<dc:creator>AnotherGerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22409</guid>
		<description>Marx was indeed one of the most compelling advocates of capitalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marx was indeed one of the most compelling advocates of capitalism.</p>
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		<title>By: AnotherGerman</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22408</link>
		<dc:creator>AnotherGerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22408</guid>
		<description>Marx was indeed one of the most compelling advocates of capitalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marx was indeed one of the most compelling advocates of capitalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Prakash</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22407</link>
		<dc:creator>Prakash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 07:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22407</guid>
		<description>How about public key cryptography, the only known way to transmit messages without sharing a key in advance, and video conferencing (scary magical technology that only wizards could have imagined earlier)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about public key cryptography, the only known way to transmit messages without sharing a key in advance, and video conferencing (scary magical technology that only wizards could have imagined earlier)</p>
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		<title>By: David Jinkins</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22406</link>
		<dc:creator>David Jinkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22406</guid>
		<description>For all the economist bashing, we do need models that simplify reality to understand the world.  In order to tease out the factors that are important in certain situations, neo-classical and Keynesian economists do ignore transaction costs and a whole lot of other things.  In some situations, certainly, it is ok to ignore transaction costs.  In other situations, transaction costs are a major issue.  Some Economists have spent careers studying transaction costs.  The very fact we are talking about &quot;transaction costs&quot; is due to Coase, for instance.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;People often cite behavioral economics as the future of the general field.  Without downplaying the interesting results of behavioral economics, in order to make sense of empirical results we still need theories which will simplify reality in many, many ways.  How else will we understand in which situations the results are applicable, or even what the results are.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The best way to look at economics is as a &quot;soft science&quot; like biology.  There is never going to be a law or model which completely describes human behavior the way a physicist describes thermodynamics.  The world is just too complex.  We can, however, use simplified models to gain insight about how the world works in certain situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For all the economist bashing, we do need models that simplify reality to understand the world.  In order to tease out the factors that are important in certain situations, neo-classical and Keynesian economists do ignore transaction costs and a whole lot of other things.  In some situations, certainly, it is ok to ignore transaction costs.  In other situations, transaction costs are a major issue.  Some Economists have spent careers studying transaction costs.  The very fact we are talking about &#8220;transaction costs&#8221; is due to Coase, for instance.  </p>
<p>People often cite behavioral economics as the future of the general field.  Without downplaying the interesting results of behavioral economics, in order to make sense of empirical results we still need theories which will simplify reality in many, many ways.  How else will we understand in which situations the results are applicable, or even what the results are.  </p>
<p>The best way to look at economics is as a &#8220;soft science&#8221; like biology.  There is never going to be a law or model which completely describes human behavior the way a physicist describes thermodynamics.  The world is just too complex.  We can, however, use simplified models to gain insight about how the world works in certain situations.</p>
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		<title>By: dere</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22405</link>
		<dc:creator>dere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22405</guid>
		<description>Raivo Pommer&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;mailto:raimo1@hot.ee&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;raimo1@hot.ee&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;ING-DiBa krise&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Vor einer Falle beim Vergleich von Kreditangeboten warnt die ING-DiBa: Unter Umständen droht eine Herabstufung der Bonität durch die Schufa, die Schutzgemeinschaft für allgemeine Kreditsicherung. Das kann zur Folge haben, dass ein Kreditantrag abgelehnt wird oder der Kredit nur zu einem höheren Zinssatz zu erhalten ist.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Keine Gefahr besteht nach den Angaben der Experten, wenn eine Bank Einheitskonditionen für alle Kreditnehmer ausweist und beim Angebotsvergleich keine persönlichen Daten angegeben werden müssen. Aufpassen sollten Verbraucher bei der Jagd nach Kreditschnäppchen hingegen bei Banken, die den Zins von der Bonität des Kunden abhängig machen.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Erkennen lassen sich solche Angebote daran, dass kein fester Zinssatz ausgewiesen wird, sondern mit Begriffen wie beispielsweise &quot;Ratenkredite ab 6,9 Prozent&quot; geworben wird. Um ein konkretes Angebot zu erhalten, müssen Verbraucher bei solchen Geldinstituten ihre Adressdaten sowie weitere Angaben zur Einkommens- und Vermögenslage hinterlassen. Um den bonitätsabhängigen Zins zu ermitteln, fragt dann die Bank auf Basis dieser Daten bei der Schufa an</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raivo Pommer<br /><a href="mailto:raimo1@hot.ee" rel="nofollow">raimo1@hot.ee</a></p>
<p>ING-DiBa krise</p>
<p>Vor einer Falle beim Vergleich von Kreditangeboten warnt die ING-DiBa: Unter Umständen droht eine Herabstufung der Bonität durch die Schufa, die Schutzgemeinschaft für allgemeine Kreditsicherung. Das kann zur Folge haben, dass ein Kreditantrag abgelehnt wird oder der Kredit nur zu einem höheren Zinssatz zu erhalten ist.</p>
<p>Keine Gefahr besteht nach den Angaben der Experten, wenn eine Bank Einheitskonditionen für alle Kreditnehmer ausweist und beim Angebotsvergleich keine persönlichen Daten angegeben werden müssen. Aufpassen sollten Verbraucher bei der Jagd nach Kreditschnäppchen hingegen bei Banken, die den Zins von der Bonität des Kunden abhängig machen.</p>
<p>Erkennen lassen sich solche Angebote daran, dass kein fester Zinssatz ausgewiesen wird, sondern mit Begriffen wie beispielsweise &#8220;Ratenkredite ab 6,9 Prozent&#8221; geworben wird. Um ein konkretes Angebot zu erhalten, müssen Verbraucher bei solchen Geldinstituten ihre Adressdaten sowie weitere Angaben zur Einkommens- und Vermögenslage hinterlassen. Um den bonitätsabhängigen Zins zu ermitteln, fragt dann die Bank auf Basis dieser Daten bei der Schufa an</p>
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		<title>By: forkthis</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22404</link>
		<dc:creator>forkthis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22404</guid>
		<description>I should have probably stuck with &quot;neener neener.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have probably stuck with &#8220;neener neener.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: DMonteith</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22403</link>
		<dc:creator>DMonteith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22403</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I&#039;d say the wealth disparity between San Diego and Tijuana (or the United States and Mexico) has very little to do with access to natural resources, and far more to do with the social constructs that enable/strangle commercial exchange and innovation.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You just destroyed that straw man there!  Unlike you guys, I&#039;m not claiming that the other side of the argument has no merit whatsoever.  I would, however, point out that very small changes in historical contingency could easily have had us arguing in spanish about the poor anglos who just can&#039;t  get their shit together.  This bizarro world, however, would most likely sustain a &quot;complex order of spatially and temporally extended impersonal exchange&quot; funded in large part by astronomical surpluses provided by fossil fuels. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;i&gt;You presume that all peoples will derive the same value from the magic box.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Well, I &lt;b&gt;actually&lt;/b&gt; presume that multiple iterations of our little thought experiment would result in historical accidents that lead to different peoples deriving somewhat different values from the magic box, but that the results:  a)would be unpredictable from the starting conditions; b) would rarely repeat; and c)  would reveal that the process of development of the complex structures required to exploit the box would would create more congruencies between the successful societies than differences.  Thanks for asking.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;No more chance that our disagreement stems from an excessive love of parsimony on my part, huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I&#39;d say the wealth disparity between San Diego and Tijuana (or the United States and Mexico) has very little to do with access to natural resources, and far more to do with the social constructs that enable/strangle commercial exchange and innovation.</i></p>
<p>You just destroyed that straw man there!  Unlike you guys, I&#39;m not claiming that the other side of the argument has no merit whatsoever.  I would, however, point out that very small changes in historical contingency could easily have had us arguing in spanish about the poor anglos who just can&#39;t  get their shit together.  This bizarro world, however, would most likely sustain a &#8220;complex order of spatially and temporally extended impersonal exchange&#8221; funded in large part by astronomical surpluses provided by fossil fuels. </p>
<p><i>You presume that all peoples will derive the same value from the magic box.</i></p>
<p>Well, I <b>actually</b> presume that multiple iterations of our little thought experiment would result in historical accidents that lead to different peoples deriving somewhat different values from the magic box, but that the results:  a)would be unpredictable from the starting conditions; b) would rarely repeat; and c)  would reveal that the process of development of the complex structures required to exploit the box would would create more congruencies between the successful societies than differences.  Thanks for asking.</p>
<p>No more chance that our disagreement stems from an excessive love of parsimony on my part, huh?</p>
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		<title>By: forkthis</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22402</link>
		<dc:creator>forkthis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22402</guid>
		<description>More dribble.  By way of example (maybe not a great example, but I&#039;m sure we could point to others), I&#039;d say the wealth disparity between San Diego and Tijuana (or the United States and Mexico) has very little to do with access to natural resources, and far more to do with the social constructs that enable/strangle commercial exchange and innovation.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That is, if the magic box is a given, it&#039;s these social constructs such as the rule of law and state recognition of contracts (enabling complex coordinated effort) that renders value from the magic box.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You presume that all peoples will derive the same value from the magic box.  On this count I believe you&#039;re wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More dribble.  By way of example (maybe not a great example, but I&#39;m sure we could point to others), I&#39;d say the wealth disparity between San Diego and Tijuana (or the United States and Mexico) has very little to do with access to natural resources, and far more to do with the social constructs that enable/strangle commercial exchange and innovation.  </p>
<p>That is, if the magic box is a given, it&#39;s these social constructs such as the rule of law and state recognition of contracts (enabling complex coordinated effort) that renders value from the magic box.</p>
<p>You presume that all peoples will derive the same value from the magic box.  On this count I believe you&#39;re wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: DMonteith</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22401</link>
		<dc:creator>DMonteith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22401</guid>
		<description>If there were a magic treasure chest in a bank vault that remained full of money no matter how much you took out of it, would my inability to access the vault negate the treasure chest&#039;s existence?  The nature of the value/capital in play here seems irrelevant.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In this scenario, the existence of the magic box serves as an incentive to develop the necessary complex systems to access it.  Access to the magic box is the &quot;return&quot; part of &quot;return on investment&quot;.  To turn this question around, how do these complex systems arise absent independently existing incentives?  If access to the magic box is fully known in advance to be impossible, then the scenario is reduced to an observation that the absence of incentives is functionally equivalent to the absence of incentives.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Your impressive knowledge (credit where due!) of the empirical blind spots of economics vis a vis behavioral psychology seems matched by a lack of knowledge concerning a similar inability of mainstream economics to integrate itself with the empirical findings ecological/geophysical experts.   How convenient for you that this ignorance is justified by the triviality/nonexistence of the issue!  You really should get your findings published in the Journal of Ecological Economics before they shutter their operations!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The urge to snark would be easier to resist if you just claimed disinterest in the subject rather than offering such weak objections to to it&#039;s validity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there were a magic treasure chest in a bank vault that remained full of money no matter how much you took out of it, would my inability to access the vault negate the treasure chest&#39;s existence?  The nature of the value/capital in play here seems irrelevant.</p>
<p>In this scenario, the existence of the magic box serves as an incentive to develop the necessary complex systems to access it.  Access to the magic box is the &#8220;return&#8221; part of &#8220;return on investment&#8221;.  To turn this question around, how do these complex systems arise absent independently existing incentives?  If access to the magic box is fully known in advance to be impossible, then the scenario is reduced to an observation that the absence of incentives is functionally equivalent to the absence of incentives.</p>
<p>Your impressive knowledge (credit where due!) of the empirical blind spots of economics vis a vis behavioral psychology seems matched by a lack of knowledge concerning a similar inability of mainstream economics to integrate itself with the empirical findings ecological/geophysical experts.   How convenient for you that this ignorance is justified by the triviality/nonexistence of the issue!  You really should get your findings published in the Journal of Ecological Economics before they shutter their operations!</p>
<p>The urge to snark would be easier to resist if you just claimed disinterest in the subject rather than offering such weak objections to to it&#39;s validity.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul G. Brown</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22400</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul G. Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22400</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d quibble with &quot;[M]ost of the New Classical and New Keynesian macroeconomics assumes away the problem of contract enforcement. &quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My Macro 301 course the problem of price stickiness--necessary to much of the Keynesian machinery--was explained as an artifact of contracts and transaction costs. It costs time &amp; money to find cheaper, to relabel goods. Administrating auction markets costs even more.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But after that it all becomes much more reasonable. Real human beings aren&#039;t very good at rationality. Begin there. And construct a theory of markets based on assumptions of error, bias, mistakes and subsequent correction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;d quibble with &#8220;[M]ost of the New Classical and New Keynesian macroeconomics assumes away the problem of contract enforcement. &#8220;</p>
<p>My Macro 301 course the problem of price stickiness&#8211;necessary to much of the Keynesian machinery&#8211;was explained as an artifact of contracts and transaction costs. It costs time &#038; money to find cheaper, to relabel goods. Administrating auction markets costs even more.</p>
<p>But after that it all becomes much more reasonable. Real human beings aren&#39;t very good at rationality. Begin there. And construct a theory of markets based on assumptions of error, bias, mistakes and subsequent correction.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul G. Brown</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22399</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul G. Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22399</guid>
		<description>The diesel powered generator, and television. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Really. Visit some slums. They may not have running water, and they will often depend on kerosene lights. But they will have a TV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The diesel powered generator, and television. </p>
<p>Really. Visit some slums. They may not have running water, and they will often depend on kerosene lights. But they will have a TV.</p>
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		<title>By: Jess Austin</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22398</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22398</guid>
		<description>Your critique of Buiter&#039;s hypothesized baseline is a little too structuralist for my taste.  The noble savages were humans just like us.  They had the same intelligence and basic goals, even if they lacked particular customs and institutions.  Even more so than for us in the civilized world, any interaction with other parties, including trade, involved a great deal of risk.  The tribe down the river might want to sell us some flea-ridden hides, or maybe they just want to see the stuff we have and steal it from us while killing four adults and kidnapping a couple of preteens.  Maybe you call that a &quot;transaction cost&quot;, but my tribe sees it as more of an existential threat.  We&#039;ll just shiver through this winter using the hides we have, thanks.  Our baseline is to throw rocks at anyone outside the tribe.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Even this sort of prehistoric scenario planning is unnecessary, though.  If we really want to do science (that&#039;s gonna be a stretch for most economists, but let &#039;em try), then we&#039;re talking about models and hypotheses, not &quot;the truth&quot;.  It may be easier to work with a baseline of zero than a baseline of epsilon.  If the resulting theory allows us to make falsifiable predictions of future observations, then we have something we can use.  If not, back to the drawing board.  As my own little structuralist interlude above was meant to demonstrate, the less our economic theories depend on fevered aetiological imaginings of the state of nature, the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your critique of Buiter&#39;s hypothesized baseline is a little too structuralist for my taste.  The noble savages were humans just like us.  They had the same intelligence and basic goals, even if they lacked particular customs and institutions.  Even more so than for us in the civilized world, any interaction with other parties, including trade, involved a great deal of risk.  The tribe down the river might want to sell us some flea-ridden hides, or maybe they just want to see the stuff we have and steal it from us while killing four adults and kidnapping a couple of preteens.  Maybe you call that a &#8220;transaction cost&#8221;, but my tribe sees it as more of an existential threat.  We&#39;ll just shiver through this winter using the hides we have, thanks.  Our baseline is to throw rocks at anyone outside the tribe.</p>
<p>Even this sort of prehistoric scenario planning is unnecessary, though.  If we really want to do science (that&#39;s gonna be a stretch for most economists, but let &#39;em try), then we&#39;re talking about models and hypotheses, not &#8220;the truth&#8221;.  It may be easier to work with a baseline of zero than a baseline of epsilon.  If the resulting theory allows us to make falsifiable predictions of future observations, then we have something we can use.  If not, back to the drawing board.  As my own little structuralist interlude above was meant to demonstrate, the less our economic theories depend on fevered aetiological imaginings of the state of nature, the better.</p>
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		<title>By: DMonteith</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22397</link>
		<dc:creator>DMonteith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22397</guid>
		<description>This is a significant improvement over the claim that transaction costs represent the single greatest limiting factor for human welfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a significant improvement over the claim that transaction costs represent the single greatest limiting factor for human welfare.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22396</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22396</guid>
		<description>Can we agree that neither complex cooperation nor nature is a sufficient condition for growth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we agree that neither complex cooperation nor nature is a sufficient condition for growth?</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/03/03/hey-kids-transactions-costs/#comment-22395</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=3052#comment-22395</guid>
		<description>I really don&#039;t grasp your point, and don&#039;t understand your grounds for dismissing mine. Suppose there is a box at the bottom of the ocean that contains infinite energy, produces unlimited food, etc. However, getting to the box requires an immense, complex, cooperative effort. In what sense does the box count as capital if the social coordination required to reach it cannot be accomplished?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#39;t grasp your point, and don&#39;t understand your grounds for dismissing mine. Suppose there is a box at the bottom of the ocean that contains infinite energy, produces unlimited food, etc. However, getting to the box requires an immense, complex, cooperative effort. In what sense does the box count as capital if the social coordination required to reach it cannot be accomplished?</p>
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