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	<title>Comments on: Whatever Disagreements I May Have With Jonah&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: closing cost</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21662</link>
		<dc:creator>closing cost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 15:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21662</guid>
		<description>In order to save the banksters from paying the consequences of their own greed and fraud, it is necessary to push larger and larger amounts of credit through the banking system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order to save the banksters from paying the consequences of their own greed and fraud, it is necessary to push larger and larger amounts of credit through the banking system.</p>
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		<title>By: closing cost</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21661</link>
		<dc:creator>closing cost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 08:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21661</guid>
		<description>In order to save the banksters from paying the consequences of their own greed and fraud, it is necessary to push larger and larger amounts of credit through the banking system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order to save the banksters from paying the consequences of their own greed and fraud, it is necessary to push larger and larger amounts of credit through the banking system.</p>
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		<title>By: GU</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21660</link>
		<dc:creator>GU</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21660</guid>
		<description>Hear Hear! What incentive, besides personal dignity, is there anymore to live a financially prudent life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear Hear! What incentive, besides personal dignity, is there anymore to live a financially prudent life?</p>
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		<title>By: GU</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21659</link>
		<dc:creator>GU</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21659</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But what if the value of your home has dipped 40% and there is little prospect of getting that value back anytime soon? Add to that the increased importance of mobility in career advancement and I think the prospect of people walking away from their mortgages becomes much greater.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I understand why people in these types of situations feel screwed, but they brought it upon themselves. If you treat your house as an investment, then you have to accept the downside risk that your gamble, which at bottom is what an investment is, will not pay off. When it doesn&#039;t pay off, you don&#039;t get to screw everyone else over, especially the prudent folks who didn&#039;t put themselves at unnecessary risk.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Consider a person who rents an apartment, lives below his means and invests heavily in the stock market. Right now, that person would be reeling from the stock market crash, but should he get special treatment or a tax payer-subsidized soft-landing? If no, then why are the housing speculators treated different? They should not be. A house is a place to live; if you want to gamble with your place of residence, that is your business, but don&#039;t reach for my wallet when you lose your gamble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But what if the value of your home has dipped 40% and there is little prospect of getting that value back anytime soon? Add to that the increased importance of mobility in career advancement and I think the prospect of people walking away from their mortgages becomes much greater.</p></blockquote>
<p>I understand why people in these types of situations feel screwed, but they brought it upon themselves. If you treat your house as an investment, then you have to accept the downside risk that your gamble, which at bottom is what an investment is, will not pay off. When it doesn&#39;t pay off, you don&#39;t get to screw everyone else over, especially the prudent folks who didn&#39;t put themselves at unnecessary risk.</p>
<p>Consider a person who rents an apartment, lives below his means and invests heavily in the stock market. Right now, that person would be reeling from the stock market crash, but should he get special treatment or a tax payer-subsidized soft-landing? If no, then why are the housing speculators treated different? They should not be. A house is a place to live; if you want to gamble with your place of residence, that is your business, but don&#39;t reach for my wallet when you lose your gamble.</p>
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		<title>By: C3</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21658</link>
		<dc:creator>C3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21658</guid>
		<description>While I can&#039;t say what ALL Republicans have said, the consistent comment I&#039;ve heard is that we may be subsidizing that bad bets of homeowners who over-extended while ignoring those who didn&#039;t buy more than they could afford.  Of course those folks have their own reward (isn&#039;t doing the &quot;right thing&quot; its own reward)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now the counter argument has been that letting the &quot;bad bet&quot; homeowners default further reduces property values and puts more of the responsible homeowners at risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I can&#39;t say what ALL Republicans have said, the consistent comment I&#39;ve heard is that we may be subsidizing that bad bets of homeowners who over-extended while ignoring those who didn&#39;t buy more than they could afford.  Of course those folks have their own reward (isn&#39;t doing the &#8220;right thing&#8221; its own reward)</p>
<p>Now the counter argument has been that letting the &#8220;bad bet&#8221; homeowners default further reduces property values and puts more of the responsible homeowners at risk.</p>
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		<title>By: SimonK</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21657</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21657</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t remove a foreclosure from your credit report once it happens. If you really need to get out from under a mortgage that is for more than the home&#039;s value, by far the best option is to reach a deal with the bank to either do a short sale, or surrender the deed in lieu of foreclosure. Such a deal usually includes provisions to improve the borrower&#039;s chances of getting credit later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#39;t remove a foreclosure from your credit report once it happens. If you really need to get out from under a mortgage that is for more than the home&#39;s value, by far the best option is to reach a deal with the bank to either do a short sale, or surrender the deed in lieu of foreclosure. Such a deal usually includes provisions to improve the borrower&#39;s chances of getting credit later.</p>
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		<title>By: SimonK</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21656</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21656</guid>
		<description>That would be wonderful were we not in a giant, largely government-created mess. Unfortunately governments can create messes to which there is no private sector solution, and this would appear to be one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be wonderful were we not in a giant, largely government-created mess. Unfortunately governments can create messes to which there is no private sector solution, and this would appear to be one.</p>
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		<title>By: SimonK</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21655</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21655</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t speak for you, but I see a lot of schadenfreude in people&#039;s responses to this. Everyone who bought a house during the peak was an irresponsible speculator who bought what they couldn&#039;t afford and deserves to suffer, so we can delight in their misfortunes. Sorry, but it isn&#039;t true - this has caught those who were responsible along with those who were not. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As a fellow responsible renter, I agree with everything else you say. Prices have to fall and I have no interest in putting a floor under them. What I am interested in is measure to help the market clear (ie prices to fall) as fast as possible, and with the miniumum in collateral damage to people who didn&#039;t do anything wrong. This plan makes some moves in that direction, and some others that are bad. Rather than making some kind of sensible analysis, Will just quoted someone elses glib, thoughtless response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#39;t speak for you, but I see a lot of schadenfreude in people&#39;s responses to this. Everyone who bought a house during the peak was an irresponsible speculator who bought what they couldn&#39;t afford and deserves to suffer, so we can delight in their misfortunes. Sorry, but it isn&#39;t true &#8211; this has caught those who were responsible along with those who were not. </p>
<p>As a fellow responsible renter, I agree with everything else you say. Prices have to fall and I have no interest in putting a floor under them. What I am interested in is measure to help the market clear (ie prices to fall) as fast as possible, and with the miniumum in collateral damage to people who didn&#39;t do anything wrong. This plan makes some moves in that direction, and some others that are bad. Rather than making some kind of sensible analysis, Will just quoted someone elses glib, thoughtless response.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul O&#039;Pinion</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21654</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul O&#039;Pinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21654</guid>
		<description>Please take the above post off</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please take the above post off</p>
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		<title>By: Paul O&#039;Pinion</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-22612</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul O&#039;Pinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-22612</guid>
		<description>Please take the above post off</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please take the above post off</p>
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		<title>By: SO cash Paulie Carbone</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21653</link>
		<dc:creator>SO cash Paulie Carbone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21653</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent post.  For an example of the mentality that is debasing contemporary dialogue see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Pain_series&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; this &lt;/a&gt;  racist tirade by Julian Elson.  Lovers of liberty and freedom need to stand about against people like Julian Elson.  Julian Elson is the cancer that is killing the internets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent post.  For an example of the mentality that is debasing contemporary dialogue see <a href="http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Pain_series" rel="nofollow"> this </a>  racist tirade by Julian Elson.  Lovers of liberty and freedom need to stand about against people like Julian Elson.  Julian Elson is the cancer that is killing the internets.</p>
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		<title>By: zzzzzzak</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21652</link>
		<dc:creator>zzzzzzak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21652</guid>
		<description>&quot;But I really don’t understand why it’s such an unbearable crisis for responsible homeowners themselves.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s not an unbearable crisis for homeowners.  It&#039;s an unbearable crisis for politicians and bureaucrats.  For government to expand they need to create new classes of dependent people.  Otherwise they will not be able to cultivate votes, demand large budget increases, and funnel huge new contracts to their friends.  Also in order to save the banksters from paying the consequences of their own greed and fraud, it is necessary to push larger and larger amounts of credit through the banking system.  Cleaning up balance sheets and liquidating toxic assets would be a real crisis (for the banksters).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It may seem like a sensible, pragmatic solution to you, if they would only leave the markets alone and let people sort out their housing and financial problems for themselves, peacefully and without any drama.  But that would be a disaster for the people who are running things.  Not because they can&#039;t survive in a free market, but because they don&#039;t want to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But I really don’t understand why it’s such an unbearable crisis for responsible homeowners themselves.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#39;s not an unbearable crisis for homeowners.  It&#39;s an unbearable crisis for politicians and bureaucrats.  For government to expand they need to create new classes of dependent people.  Otherwise they will not be able to cultivate votes, demand large budget increases, and funnel huge new contracts to their friends.  Also in order to save the banksters from paying the consequences of their own greed and fraud, it is necessary to push larger and larger amounts of credit through the banking system.  Cleaning up balance sheets and liquidating toxic assets would be a real crisis (for the banksters).</p>
<p>It may seem like a sensible, pragmatic solution to you, if they would only leave the markets alone and let people sort out their housing and financial problems for themselves, peacefully and without any drama.  But that would be a disaster for the people who are running things.  Not because they can&#39;t survive in a free market, but because they don&#39;t want to.</p>
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		<title>By: GilM</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21651</link>
		<dc:creator>GilM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21651</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m no expert, but I know I&#039;ve read that it haunts  your credit for seven years.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I also know that there are services that claim to be able to have such items removed.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Maybe somebody else knows how cheaply, easily and reliably this can be done.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In any case, there&#039;s a cost worth weighing in the calculation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m no expert, but I know I&#39;ve read that it haunts  your credit for seven years.</p>
<p>I also know that there are services that claim to be able to have such items removed.</p>
<p>Maybe somebody else knows how cheaply, easily and reliably this can be done.  </p>
<p>In any case, there&#39;s a cost worth weighing in the calculation.</p>
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		<title>By: Pithlord</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21650</link>
		<dc:creator>Pithlord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21650</guid>
		<description>In Canada, a bank that forecloses on a mortgage thereby forgives the debt (the &quot;personal covenant&quot;). I&#039;m not familiar with American law, and I assume it may vary state-by-state. But if that&#039;s the case, there is no reason why a person walking away from a house that was underwater would jeopardize thier credit rating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Canada, a bank that forecloses on a mortgage thereby forgives the debt (the &#8220;personal covenant&#8221;). I&#39;m not familiar with American law, and I assume it may vary state-by-state. But if that&#39;s the case, there is no reason why a person walking away from a house that was underwater would jeopardize thier credit rating.</p>
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		<title>By: GilM</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/whatever-disagreements-i-may-have-with-jonah/#comment-21649</link>
		<dc:creator>GilM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2904#comment-21649</guid>
		<description>Sounds great Simon.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;How much of &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; money would be better spent subsidizing trouble mortgages than anything else you can think of doing with it? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For me, it&#039;s $0.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If it&#039;s more than that for you, then maybe you should write a check.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There are lots of projects that have &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; value, and it&#039;s tempting to spend other people&#039;s money (along with a little of your own) on it.  But, I think it&#039;s almost always better (practically and morally) to have a policy of not doing that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds great Simon.  </p>
<p>How much of <i>your</i> money would be better spent subsidizing trouble mortgages than anything else you can think of doing with it? </p>
<p>For me, it&#39;s $0.  </p>
<p>If it&#39;s more than that for you, then maybe you should write a check.</p>
<p>There are lots of projects that have <i>some</i> value, and it&#39;s tempting to spend other people&#39;s money (along with a little of your own) on it.  But, I think it&#39;s almost always better (practically and morally) to have a policy of not doing that.</p>
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