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	<title>Comments on: The Statist Elephant (Ha!) in the Room</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:11:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21633</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21633</guid>
		<description>Oh, and to answer the question &quot;what&#039;s wrong with isolationism,&quot; -- our electorate has the emotional maturity of a 16 year old. When some foreign malefactor hurts us, any politician who hesitates to punish him militarily is a wimp, and not taking action to keep us safe.  Imagine a congressman arguing against the invasion of Afghanistan after 9-11.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and to answer the question &#8220;what&#39;s wrong with isolationism,&#8221; &#8212; our electorate has the emotional maturity of a 16 year old. When some foreign malefactor hurts us, any politician who hesitates to punish him militarily is a wimp, and not taking action to keep us safe.  Imagine a congressman arguing against the invasion of Afghanistan after 9-11.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21632</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21632</guid>
		<description>Guess that answers my question! &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It really is fascinating to speculate what life would have been like if we had sat out the world wars, and put &quot;American First.&quot;  Probably no Israel.  If we let Europe, Korea, Japan to fend for themselves with nasty hegemonies the world -- and our place in it -- would have been worse in a variety of ways; but enough worse to justify the numbers of our servicemen killed in action the last 100 years?   Of course the dirty secret is that by 1941 there were political advantages to FDR gearing up for war: full employment, economic recovery, and a populace focused on a foreign enemy instead of his mistakes. (I hasten to add, my tentative view is that FDR was at bottom well intentioned, and in fact played the hand dealt him suberbly.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guess that answers my question! </p>
<p>It really is fascinating to speculate what life would have been like if we had sat out the world wars, and put &#8220;American First.&#8221;  Probably no Israel.  If we let Europe, Korea, Japan to fend for themselves with nasty hegemonies the world &#8212; and our place in it &#8212; would have been worse in a variety of ways; but enough worse to justify the numbers of our servicemen killed in action the last 100 years?   Of course the dirty secret is that by 1941 there were political advantages to FDR gearing up for war: full employment, economic recovery, and a populace focused on a foreign enemy instead of his mistakes. (I hasten to add, my tentative view is that FDR was at bottom well intentioned, and in fact played the hand dealt him suberbly.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21631</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21631</guid>
		<description>Oh, and to answer the question &quot;what&#039;s wrong with isolationism,&quot; -- our electorate has the emotional maturity of a 16 year old. When some foreign malefactor hurts us, any politician who hesitates to punish him militarily is a wimp, and not taking action to keep us safe.  Imagine a congressman arguing against the invasion of Afghanistan after 9-11.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and to answer the question &#8220;what&#39;s wrong with isolationism,&#8221; &#8212; our electorate has the emotional maturity of a 16 year old. When some foreign malefactor hurts us, any politician who hesitates to punish him militarily is a wimp, and not taking action to keep us safe.  Imagine a congressman arguing against the invasion of Afghanistan after 9-11.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21630</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21630</guid>
		<description>Guess that answers my question! &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It really is fascinating to speculate what life would have been like if we had sat out the world wars, and put &quot;American First.&quot;  Probably no Israel.  If we let Europe, Korea, Japan to fend for themselves with nasty hegemonies the world -- and our place in it -- would have been worse in a variety of ways; but enough worse to justify the numbers of our servicemen killed in action the last 100 years?   Of course the dirty secret is that by 1941 there were political advantages to FDR gearing up for war: full employment, economic recovery, and a populace focused on a foreign enemy instead of his mistakes. (I hasten to add, my tentative view is that FDR was at bottom well intentioned, and in fact played the hand dealt him suberbly.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guess that answers my question! </p>
<p>It really is fascinating to speculate what life would have been like if we had sat out the world wars, and put &#8220;American First.&#8221;  Probably no Israel.  If we let Europe, Korea, Japan to fend for themselves with nasty hegemonies the world &#8212; and our place in it &#8212; would have been worse in a variety of ways; but enough worse to justify the numbers of our servicemen killed in action the last 100 years?   Of course the dirty secret is that by 1941 there were political advantages to FDR gearing up for war: full employment, economic recovery, and a populace focused on a foreign enemy instead of his mistakes. (I hasten to add, my tentative view is that FDR was at bottom well intentioned, and in fact played the hand dealt him suberbly.)</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21629</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21629</guid>
		<description>I actually wrote a post entitled &lt;a href=&quot;http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/what-was-so-bad-about-charles-lindbergh/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;What was so bad about Charles Lindbergh?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually wrote a post entitled <a href="http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/what-was-so-bad-about-charles-lindbergh/" rel="nofollow">What was so bad about Charles Lindbergh?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21628</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21628</guid>
		<description>In case my last is too subtle -- I am supposing that an isolationist candidate would be doing well to get 30% of the popular vote. (I could be wrong; if folks get sick enough of Afghanistan, maybe a majority will convert to &quot;America First,&quot; and let Russia, China and Iran expand their spheres of hegemony unmolested for a while.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For now, it seems to me that the prescription for R&#039;s in not &quot;eschew militarism,&quot; but &quot;don&#039;t wage wars that most voters consider needless and mismanaged.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case my last is too subtle &#8212; I am supposing that an isolationist candidate would be doing well to get 30% of the popular vote. (I could be wrong; if folks get sick enough of Afghanistan, maybe a majority will convert to &#8220;America First,&#8221; and let Russia, China and Iran expand their spheres of hegemony unmolested for a while.)</p>
<p>For now, it seems to me that the prescription for R&#39;s in not &#8220;eschew militarism,&#8221; but &#8220;don&#39;t wage wars that most voters consider needless and mismanaged.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21627</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21627</guid>
		<description>Freedom Fries were, actually, the idea of one particular Republican Congressman-- Walter Jones (R-NC), who became one of the first Republicans to noisily oppose the war as well.  (He represents the prickly backwoods mountain areas of NC, who have been Republicans for forever because they hated the state government and going off to fight for the wealthy city folk who owned slaves and disliked the revenuers.  Libertarianish peopple.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;d have to be convinced that the Democrats are actually an alternative on those issues.  I don&#039;t regard waterboarding as worse than what goes on daily in Supermax prisons (like ADX Florence in Colorado or in Fort Leavenworth), so if the idea is &quot;we won&#039;t keep them in Guantanamo, we&#039;ll move them to Supermax or to &quot;temporary&quot; overseas prisons), who cares?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Obama Administration position on rendition and indefinite detention is the same as the Bush Administration&#039;s, just with a promise to use it more reliably.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I guess we&#039;ll see if the omnibus spending bill actually has any defense spending cuts.  Clinton did cut defense considerably-- and a Republican Congress went along with it.  (Did anyone seriously think that Newt Gingrich and Dick Armey couldn&#039;t have started a budget crisis (and won) by insisting on more military spending?  And yet they didn&#039;t, despite it being a putatively winning issue.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would be nice for there to be a more libertarian alternative.  But as far as I can tell, libertarians ran away from the Republicans precisely when the Democrats offered little more than vague promises at best. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They also ran away from a Republican contender who had voted against the worst Republican excesses, including torture, the farm bill both times, both energy bills, the prescription drug benefit, etc., all because of &quot;temperament.&quot;  I struggle to understand why voting for someone who you&#039;d rather have dinner with rather than because of policy (just like how most people vote anyway, sadly) is particularly &quot;rational.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Freedom Fries were, actually, the idea of one particular Republican Congressman&#8211; Walter Jones (R-NC), who became one of the first Republicans to noisily oppose the war as well.  (He represents the prickly backwoods mountain areas of NC, who have been Republicans for forever because they hated the state government and going off to fight for the wealthy city folk who owned slaves and disliked the revenuers.  Libertarianish peopple.)</p>
<p>I&#39;d have to be convinced that the Democrats are actually an alternative on those issues.  I don&#39;t regard waterboarding as worse than what goes on daily in Supermax prisons (like ADX Florence in Colorado or in Fort Leavenworth), so if the idea is &#8220;we won&#39;t keep them in Guantanamo, we&#39;ll move them to Supermax or to &#8220;temporary&#8221; overseas prisons), who cares?</p>
<p>The Obama Administration position on rendition and indefinite detention is the same as the Bush Administration&#39;s, just with a promise to use it more reliably.</p>
<p>I guess we&#39;ll see if the omnibus spending bill actually has any defense spending cuts.  Clinton did cut defense considerably&#8211; and a Republican Congress went along with it.  (Did anyone seriously think that Newt Gingrich and Dick Armey couldn&#39;t have started a budget crisis (and won) by insisting on more military spending?  And yet they didn&#39;t, despite it being a putatively winning issue.)</p>
<p>I would be nice for there to be a more libertarian alternative.  But as far as I can tell, libertarians ran away from the Republicans precisely when the Democrats offered little more than vague promises at best. </p>
<p>They also ran away from a Republican contender who had voted against the worst Republican excesses, including torture, the farm bill both times, both energy bills, the prescription drug benefit, etc., all because of &#8220;temperament.&#8221;  I struggle to understand why voting for someone who you&#39;d rather have dinner with rather than because of policy (just like how most people vote anyway, sadly) is particularly &#8220;rational.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark G</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21626</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21626</guid>
		<description>Do you favor the kind of isolationism advocated by the Republicans in the 1930&#039;s?  If not, it seems to me the issue is not &quot;militarism,&quot; but merely a debate over the details of a (fundamentally agreed) policy of making the larger world conform to our preferences.  As we maintain lots of troops in Iraq and the coffins continue to come home from Afghanistan over the next four years, with the light still farther down the tunnel, I think it will be increasingly difficult to distinguish between the parties on the issue of &quot;militarism.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you favor the kind of isolationism advocated by the Republicans in the 1930&#39;s?  If not, it seems to me the issue is not &#8220;militarism,&#8221; but merely a debate over the details of a (fundamentally agreed) policy of making the larger world conform to our preferences.  As we maintain lots of troops in Iraq and the coffins continue to come home from Afghanistan over the next four years, with the light still farther down the tunnel, I think it will be increasingly difficult to distinguish between the parties on the issue of &#8220;militarism.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sigivald</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21625</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigivald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21625</guid>
		<description>Nobody&#039;s bombed Iran, though. Those evil Republicans were all about... talking to the Iranians.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Freedom Fries were not, as far as I remember, either named or endorsed by the GOP - they were one guy&#039;s stupid idea.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(I&#039;m also with Dan H. - while the GOP are hardly libertarians, I continue to think they&#039;re still significantly the lesser evil to liberty, as the two parties stand at this moment.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Believing that the Democrats are somehow against the things in the quote listed*, rather than &lt;I&gt;against them when it&#039;s a Republican doing them&lt;/i&gt; seems to be unsupported by the history of the 90s.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;* Except for defense budgets; the only Democratic presidency of the past almost-30 years, except for the one that just started, did in fact slash defense considerably. But it also had the excellent excuse of the cold war ending.)&lt;/I&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody&#39;s bombed Iran, though. Those evil Republicans were all about&#8230; talking to the Iranians.</p>
<p>Freedom Fries were not, as far as I remember, either named or endorsed by the GOP &#8211; they were one guy&#39;s stupid idea.</p>
<p>(I&#39;m also with Dan H. &#8211; while the GOP are hardly libertarians, I continue to think they&#39;re still significantly the lesser evil to liberty, as the two parties stand at this moment.</p>
<p>Believing that the Democrats are somehow against the things in the quote listed*, rather than <i>against them when it&#39;s a Republican doing them</i> seems to be unsupported by the history of the 90s.</p>
<p>* Except for defense budgets; the only Democratic presidency of the past almost-30 years, except for the one that just started, did in fact slash defense considerably. But it also had the excellent excuse of the cold war ending.)</p>
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		<title>By: Dan H.</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2009/02/18/the-statist-elephant-ha-in-the-room/#comment-21624</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2902#comment-21624</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s another thing that people are about to re-discover:  liberals are not anti-war.  They are anti-Republican-war.  When liberals run the show, they&#039;ve got no problem wielding military force.  Kennedy started the U.S. engagement in Vietnam, and Johnson escalated it.  Bill Clinton sent the U.S. military on many foreign adventures, bombed Iraq and the Sudan, and when the Democrats held power people like John Kerry and Al Gore were calling for regime change in Iraq.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Or as a Clinton staffer said to a left-wing activist who complained about the flight of military jets when Clinton was inaugurated: &quot;Those are our jets now.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Note that Obama just signed an order sending 17,000 more soldiers to Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#39;s another thing that people are about to re-discover:  liberals are not anti-war.  They are anti-Republican-war.  When liberals run the show, they&#39;ve got no problem wielding military force.  Kennedy started the U.S. engagement in Vietnam, and Johnson escalated it.  Bill Clinton sent the U.S. military on many foreign adventures, bombed Iraq and the Sudan, and when the Democrats held power people like John Kerry and Al Gore were calling for regime change in Iraq.</p>
<p>Or as a Clinton staffer said to a left-wing activist who complained about the flight of military jets when Clinton was inaugurated: &#8220;Those are our jets now.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note that Obama just signed an order sending 17,000 more soldiers to Afghanistan.</p>
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