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	<title>Comments on: How Much Are GM&#039;s Labor Costs?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: acura parts</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19155</link>
		<dc:creator>acura parts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 06:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19155</guid>
		<description>GM will lay off another 1500 employees. Hopefully they can go back in normal operation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GM will lay off another 1500 employees. Hopefully they can go back in normal operation.</p>
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		<title>By: dragdreams</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19154</link>
		<dc:creator>dragdreams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19154</guid>
		<description>GM will lay off another 1500 employees. Hopefully they can go back in normal operation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GM will lay off another 1500 employees. Hopefully they can go back in normal operation.</p>
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		<title>By: kustomatic</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19153</link>
		<dc:creator>kustomatic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19153</guid>
		<description>GM got so many excess expenses that they don&#039;t need at all. let say they got 2000 employees  with $73. They will spend $173,000 every month. We all know that GM got more than 2000 employees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GM got so many excess expenses that they don&#39;t need at all. let say they got 2000 employees  with $73. They will spend $173,000 every month. We all know that GM got more than 2000 employees.</p>
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		<title>By: K-Rock</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19152</link>
		<dc:creator>K-Rock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19152</guid>
		<description>I agree that bad business decisions have been made for decades. I don&#039;t agree the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of management of the companies however. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Union management along with Corporate management made bad deals along the way that has caused the companies to tank. The union mentality that every line worker should be paid like they hold a Masters Degree is insane. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Union management played a major role in forcing corporate management to agree to terms that could in now way shape or form allow the company to survive long term.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Big Three are similar to the US Social Security System where as people retire the current workers are paying for people who no longer are employed with the company. It is fine when you have 1 retiree for every 3 workers, not so good when the reverse is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that bad business decisions have been made for decades. I don&#39;t agree the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of management of the companies however. </p>
<p>Union management along with Corporate management made bad deals along the way that has caused the companies to tank. The union mentality that every line worker should be paid like they hold a Masters Degree is insane. </p>
<p>Union management played a major role in forcing corporate management to agree to terms that could in now way shape or form allow the company to survive long term.</p>
<p>The Big Three are similar to the US Social Security System where as people retire the current workers are paying for people who no longer are employed with the company. It is fine when you have 1 retiree for every 3 workers, not so good when the reverse is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19151</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19151</guid>
		<description>Whenever I attempt to respond to this, it turns into a long essay.  I&#039;ll try to keep it short and say that obviously I am not against BK; I actually think the car companies need to go there because they have been so poorly run for decades that an infusion of taxpayer dollars at this point would be a lost cause.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; However, let&#039;s be clear that it isn&#039;t the guys on the line earning $28/hr (which by the way is 58k/yr, which will support a family in a lmid to ower middle class lifestyle) that ran the company into the ground.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The whole $70/hr thing strikes me as something that has been latched onto by some (no matter how incorrect the numbers are) precisely because it tends to shift the attention and blame from the bad business decisions made for decades by mgmt to the the workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever I attempt to respond to this, it turns into a long essay.  I&#39;ll try to keep it short and say that obviously I am not against BK; I actually think the car companies need to go there because they have been so poorly run for decades that an infusion of taxpayer dollars at this point would be a lost cause.</p>
<p> However, let&#39;s be clear that it isn&#39;t the guys on the line earning $28/hr (which by the way is 58k/yr, which will support a family in a lmid to ower middle class lifestyle) that ran the company into the ground.  </p>
<p>The whole $70/hr thing strikes me as something that has been latched onto by some (no matter how incorrect the numbers are) precisely because it tends to shift the attention and blame from the bad business decisions made for decades by mgmt to the the workers.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19150</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19150</guid>
		<description>If you are supposed to be a for-profit corporation, then obviously yeah. Are you against bankruptcy protections in general? The core mechanism of which is allowing individuals and firms to renege on promises. Or are you saying that taxpayers should be made to meet promises they never made?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are supposed to be a for-profit corporation, then obviously yeah. Are you against bankruptcy protections in general? The core mechanism of which is allowing individuals and firms to renege on promises. Or are you saying that taxpayers should be made to meet promises they never made?</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19149</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19149</guid>
		<description>Yes, cuz paying a bunch of people who gave you the best 30 years of their lives the benefits that you promised in order to induce them to do so is &quot;wasting a ton of money.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, cuz paying a bunch of people who gave you the best 30 years of their lives the benefits that you promised in order to induce them to do so is &#8220;wasting a ton of money.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jane Galt</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19148</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Galt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19148</guid>
		<description>Meh, costs are costs &amp; labor is most expendable. Slash them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meh, costs are costs &#038; labor is most expendable. Slash them.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Yomtov</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19147</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Yomtov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19147</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No one is saying that CURRENT workers make $70 per hour. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Actually, lots of people are saying that. And the difference is highly relevant. The liability to the retirees is a fixed cost, much like interest charges on debt. It doesn&#039;t grow as GM builds more cars.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;By the way, I think a little heftier apology is in order, not this &quot;gee I didn&#039;t mean it&quot; stuff. When an obviously implausible fact comes your way, don&#039;t you have an obligation to verify it before passing it on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No one is saying that CURRENT workers make $70 per hour. </i></p>
<p>Actually, lots of people are saying that. And the difference is highly relevant. The liability to the retirees is a fixed cost, much like interest charges on debt. It doesn&#39;t grow as GM builds more cars.</p>
<p>By the way, I think a little heftier apology is in order, not this &#8220;gee I didn&#39;t mean it&#8221; stuff. When an obviously implausible fact comes your way, don&#39;t you have an obligation to verify it before passing it on?</p>
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		<title>By: save_the_rustbelt</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19146</link>
		<dc:creator>save_the_rustbelt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19146</guid>
		<description>A rather serious abuse of cost accounting, because the number is used to justify cuts in current workers&#039; pay and benefits.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If journalists and economists are going to play at accounting and finance they should probably have a clue.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Toyota and Honda will simply dump their retirees&#039; costs on the U.S. government, a much overlooked fact (the workers&#039; 401 (k) plans are melting down as you read this).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A rather serious abuse of cost accounting, because the number is used to justify cuts in current workers&#39; pay and benefits.</p>
<p>If journalists and economists are going to play at accounting and finance they should probably have a clue.</p>
<p>Toyota and Honda will simply dump their retirees&#39; costs on the U.S. government, a much overlooked fact (the workers&#39; 401 (k) plans are melting down as you read this).</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19145</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19145</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Using this statistic, if they cut half their labor force (half of the hours worked) their &quot;labor costs&quot; will increase sharply when measured in this way.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Only because of the UAW &quot;jobs bank&quot; that says that even laid off workers continue to be paid most of their salaries.  For most companies, cutting ones labor force actually reduces labor costs.  Not for the Detroit companies.  (Also, they&#039;re forced to cut the new workers making less.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s certainly true that because of recent agreements, new hires make a lot less than the old system.  But retirees and older workers are still grandfathered in under the old system.  So the current system involves newer Detroit workers subsidizing the retirees (and retirees&#039; families.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They made pension and medical benefits promises to retirees that they couldn&#039;t keep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Using this statistic, if they cut half their labor force (half of the hours worked) their &#8220;labor costs&#8221; will increase sharply when measured in this way.</em></p>
<p>Only because of the UAW &#8220;jobs bank&#8221; that says that even laid off workers continue to be paid most of their salaries.  For most companies, cutting ones labor force actually reduces labor costs.  Not for the Detroit companies.  (Also, they&#39;re forced to cut the new workers making less.)</p>
<p>It&#39;s certainly true that because of recent agreements, new hires make a lot less than the old system.  But retirees and older workers are still grandfathered in under the old system.  So the current system involves newer Detroit workers subsidizing the retirees (and retirees&#39; families.)</p>
<p>They made pension and medical benefits promises to retirees that they couldn&#39;t keep.</p>
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		<title>By: jocie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19144</link>
		<dc:creator>jocie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19144</guid>
		<description>the numbers you put up are from a Chrysler media briefing book. There&#039;s a reason why they announce their labor costs in per worker per hour form. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s quite misleading for your average non-economist reading in the Times or on a blog that UAW workers are taking home $70/hr in wages in benefits when no individual worker is doing such a thing. Using this statistic, if they cut half their labor force (half of the hours worked) their &quot;labor costs&quot; will increase sharply when measured in this way. So, may be useful for the automakers accounting departments...not a good way to assess the standard of living of a UAW worker..which many are apt to do when faced with this figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the numbers you put up are from a Chrysler media briefing book. There&#39;s a reason why they announce their labor costs in per worker per hour form. </p>
<p>It&#39;s quite misleading for your average non-economist reading in the Times or on a blog that UAW workers are taking home $70/hr in wages in benefits when no individual worker is doing such a thing. Using this statistic, if they cut half their labor force (half of the hours worked) their &#8220;labor costs&#8221; will increase sharply when measured in this way. So, may be useful for the automakers accounting departments&#8230;not a good way to assess the standard of living of a UAW worker..which many are apt to do when faced with this figure.</p>
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		<title>By: JD</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19143</link>
		<dc:creator>JD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19143</guid>
		<description>No one is saying that CURRENT workers make $70 per hour.  The only reason that figure is relevant -- and it most certainly is relevant -- is because GM cannot be profitable unless its current workers have PRODUCTIVITY that is worth $70 per hour just to pay for the costs of the workers and retirees (and that&#039;s not even counting all the other costs of running GM).  So unless productivity is high enough -- and it apparently is NOT -- GM will be in trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one is saying that CURRENT workers make $70 per hour.  The only reason that figure is relevant &#8212; and it most certainly is relevant &#8212; is because GM cannot be profitable unless its current workers have PRODUCTIVITY that is worth $70 per hour just to pay for the costs of the workers and retirees (and that&#39;s not even counting all the other costs of running GM).  So unless productivity is high enough &#8212; and it apparently is NOT &#8212; GM will be in trouble.</p>
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		<title>By: SJE</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19142</link>
		<dc:creator>SJE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19142</guid>
		<description>$73 may not be a fair estimation of benefit to the worker, but may be a fair estimate of the labor  cost to the employer- which is the thing that is driving them into bankruptcy.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Even at $28/hr, it is higher than the Honda plant that just opened in Indiana</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$73 may not be a fair estimation of benefit to the worker, but may be a fair estimate of the labor  cost to the employer- which is the thing that is driving them into bankruptcy.  </p>
<p>Even at $28/hr, it is higher than the Honda plant that just opened in Indiana</p>
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		<title>By: KipEsquire</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/11/20/how-much-are-gms-labor-costs/#comment-19141</link>
		<dc:creator>KipEsquire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=2275#comment-19141</guid>
		<description>Bills are bills, costs are costs, cash outflows are cash outflows.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Not a particularly difficult concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bills are bills, costs are costs, cash outflows are cash outflows.</p>
<p>Not a particularly difficult concept.</p>
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