Comments on: On Conservatives Saving Capitalism From Itself http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/ The Sweet Release of Reason Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:11:50 +0000 hourly 1 By: Freddie http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17832 Freddie Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:41:42 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17832 So... the endless time horizons thing... still a problem.... So… the endless time horizons thing… still a problem….

]]> By: mari dupont http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17833 mari dupont Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:53:52 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17833 Freddie, capitalism cannot give meaning to your life; it's an economic system and nothing else. If you're looking for salvation, double entry bookeeping will never deliver. Re the article above, I'm not sure which conservatives the author is referring to. I understand that some conservatives dislike the liberating (i.e. distructive) features of capitalism because it breaks up tribes, castes and customs, but there is a good (empirically backed) argument to be made that capitalism thrives and creates more entrepreneural "types" of people in places where family/religion is the strongest. In other words, rather than destroying these institutions capitalism's existence actually depends on this balance between the market and family, church, private friendships. Otherwise, it could not function effectively. Freddie, capitalism cannot give meaning to your life; it's an economic system and nothing else. If you're looking for salvation, double entry bookeeping will never deliver. Re the article above, I'm not sure which conservatives the author is referring to. I understand that some conservatives dislike the liberating (i.e. distructive) features of capitalism because it breaks up tribes, castes and customs, but there is a good (empirically backed) argument to be made that capitalism thrives and creates more entrepreneural “types” of people in places where family/religion is the strongest. In other words, rather than destroying these institutions capitalism's existence actually depends on this balance between the market and family, church, private friendships. Otherwise, it could not function effectively.

]]> By: Freddie http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17834 Freddie Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:35:23 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17834 "There's no free market utopia waiting over the rainbow, only the real world where every regulation the government puts in place impacts the market."<br><br>That's what I'm saying. I just think that there is a powerful meme that this is the case, among a certain kind of libertarian teleologist, and I don't agree. I don't mean to tar Will with a brush that I shouldn't. “There's no free market utopia waiting over the rainbow, only the real world where every regulation the government puts in place impacts the market.”

That's what I'm saying. I just think that there is a powerful meme that this is the case, among a certain kind of libertarian teleologist, and I don't agree. I don't mean to tar Will with a brush that I shouldn't.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17835 Will Wilkinson Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:34:40 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17835 Richard, Well if that's the strongest form of conservatism, it's not very strong, is it? I do think it's a pretty good explanation of conservative behavior, and a good explanation of why there is so much avoidable suffering that has not been avoided. But I don't grasp the normative bite of status quo bias. Richard, Well if that's the strongest form of conservatism, it's not very strong, is it? I do think it's a pretty good explanation of conservative behavior, and a good explanation of why there is so much avoidable suffering that has not been avoided. But I don't grasp the normative bite of status quo bias.

]]> By: Richard http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17836 Richard Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:20:47 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17836 Will - "<i>Well, what market progressives like me want to see from “free-market traditionalists” like Frost, but never get, is actual evidence that the world in which the brake has been applied tends to be a world in which people are doing better than in the world in which the throttle was left open.</i>"<br><br>Are 'traditionalists' really committed to any such claim? The <a href="http://www.philosophyetc.net/2008/05/question-of-conservatism-is-value.html" rel="nofollow">strongest form of conservatism</a>, to my mind, is G.A. Cohen's claim that we shouldn't assess outcomes simply according to net value. What matters, to the Cohen-conservative, is to preserve the valuable things that already exist. They might thus grant that radical change could bring about a better world; they just don't consider this desirable. (No more than a parent would desire to have their actual children replaced by superior alternatives.) Will – “Well, what market progressives like me want to see from “free-market traditionalists” like Frost, but never get, is actual evidence that the world in which the brake has been applied tends to be a world in which people are doing better than in the world in which the throttle was left open.“

Are 'traditionalists' really committed to any such claim? The strongest form of conservatism, to my mind, is G.A. Cohen's claim that we shouldn't assess outcomes simply according to net value. What matters, to the Cohen-conservative, is to preserve the valuable things that already exist. They might thus grant that radical change could bring about a better world; they just don't consider this desirable. (No more than a parent would desire to have their actual children replaced by superior alternatives.)

]]> By: Garrett J http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17837 Garrett J Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:07:10 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17837 Freddie-<br><br>Free market advocates laugh at the 35 hour work week in the same manner they laugh at the 40 hour work week. These are arbitrary designations that literally set the working hours of government and union employees and impact the decisions of most other employers and employees. (Do you allow overtime, should you work overtime, does this mean I need to get a second job, ect.?) For anyone who's ever been self-employed or worked more than one job at time, the notion of any X-hour work week is far removed from reality. I'm a young attorney and I can say personally that for myself, happiness is working for myself and having the time to spend with my family. For other attorneys, happiness is that big paycheck down the road when they make partner. <br><br>Second, I think you make an incorrect assumption about free market advocates. I don't know of anyone who says the market will leave no one behind- rather, the free market produces the most prosperity for the greatest number of people. The question of just what to do about those at the bottom should be a separate question from how and why the government interferes in the market. There's no free market utopia waiting over the rainbow, only the real world where every regulation the government puts in place impacts the market. Freddie-

Free market advocates laugh at the 35 hour work week in the same manner they laugh at the 40 hour work week. These are arbitrary designations that literally set the working hours of government and union employees and impact the decisions of most other employers and employees. (Do you allow overtime, should you work overtime, does this mean I need to get a second job, ect.?) For anyone who's ever been self-employed or worked more than one job at time, the notion of any X-hour work week is far removed from reality. I'm a young attorney and I can say personally that for myself, happiness is working for myself and having the time to spend with my family. For other attorneys, happiness is that big paycheck down the road when they make partner.

Second, I think you make an incorrect assumption about free market advocates. I don't know of anyone who says the market will leave no one behind- rather, the free market produces the most prosperity for the greatest number of people. The question of just what to do about those at the bottom should be a separate question from how and why the government interferes in the market. There's no free market utopia waiting over the rainbow, only the real world where every regulation the government puts in place impacts the market.

]]> By: Freddie http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17831 Freddie Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:41:42 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17831 So... the endless time horizons thing... still a problem.... So… the endless time horizons thing… still a problem….

]]> By: mari dupont http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17830 mari dupont Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:53:52 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17830 Freddie, capitalism cannot give meaning to your life; it's an economic system and nothing else. If you're looking for salvation, double entry bookeeping will never deliver. Re the article above, I'm not sure which conservatives the author is referring to. I understand that some conservatives dislike the liberating (i.e. distructive) features of capitalism because it breaks up tribes, castes and customs, but there is a good (empirically backed) argument to be made that capitalism thrives and creates more entrepreneural "types" of people in places where family/religion is the strongest. In other words, rather than destroying these institutions capitalism's existence actually depends on this balance between the market and family, church, private friendships. Otherwise, it could not function effectively. Freddie, capitalism cannot give meaning to your life; it's an economic system and nothing else. If you're looking for salvation, double entry bookeeping will never deliver. Re the article above, I'm not sure which conservatives the author is referring to. I understand that some conservatives dislike the liberating (i.e. distructive) features of capitalism because it breaks up tribes, castes and customs, but there is a good (empirically backed) argument to be made that capitalism thrives and creates more entrepreneural “types” of people in places where family/religion is the strongest. In other words, rather than destroying these institutions capitalism's existence actually depends on this balance between the market and family, church, private friendships. Otherwise, it could not function effectively.

]]> By: Freddie http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17829 Freddie Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:35:23 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17829 "There's no free market utopia waiting over the rainbow, only the real world where every regulation the government puts in place impacts the market."<br><br>That's what I'm saying. I just think that there is a powerful meme that this is the case, among a certain kind of libertarian teleologist, and I don't agree. I don't mean to tar Will with a brush that I shouldn't. “There's no free market utopia waiting over the rainbow, only the real world where every regulation the government puts in place impacts the market.”

That's what I'm saying. I just think that there is a powerful meme that this is the case, among a certain kind of libertarian teleologist, and I don't agree. I don't mean to tar Will with a brush that I shouldn't.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/09/on-conservatives-saving-capitalism-from-itself/#comment-17828 Will Wilkinson Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:34:40 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1960#comment-17828 Richard, Well if that's the strongest form of conservatism, it's not very strong, is it? I do think it's a pretty good explanation of conservative behavior, and a good explanation of why there is so much avoidable suffering that has not been avoided. But I don't grasp the normative bite of status quo bias. Richard, Well if that's the strongest form of conservatism, it's not very strong, is it? I do think it's a pretty good explanation of conservative behavior, and a good explanation of why there is so much avoidable suffering that has not been avoided. But I don't grasp the normative bite of status quo bias.

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