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	<title>Comments on: New on Free Will: Polluting the Polls with Jason Brennan</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Christie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17642</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17642</guid>
		<description>Will seems to be quite right in suggesting that he uses Jason&#039;s paper as a jumping off point for a different argument.  &quot;Polluting the Vote&quot; is a mildly interesting if ultimately unconvincing argument about the &lt;i&gt;responsibility&lt;/i&gt; of individuals to abstain from voting if they &quot;vote badly&quot;.  Will then goes on to argue that efforts to increase the numbers of people voting are nothing more than an invitation to &quot;pretty straightforwardly immoral behavior.&quot;   Will&#039;s argument is that those who are being encouraged to vote are primarily the poor and/or the young, who, although he does not come right out and say it in so many words, are simply by virtue of their youth and/or poverty &lt;i&gt;de facto&lt;/i&gt; &quot;bad voters&quot;.  In other words, they don&#039;t share Will&#039;s viewpoints or his votes for Republican candidates.  Yes, indeed, bad voters.  While Jason is encouraging everyone, no matter their economic condition or partisan choice, to not be a bad voter, Will is more interested in either continuing the practical disenfranchisement or adding to it of as many people as possible who will presumably vote for the other side.  What an intellectually dishonest argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will seems to be quite right in suggesting that he uses Jason&#39;s paper as a jumping off point for a different argument.  &#8220;Polluting the Vote&#8221; is a mildly interesting if ultimately unconvincing argument about the <i>responsibility</i> of individuals to abstain from voting if they &#8220;vote badly&#8221;.  Will then goes on to argue that efforts to increase the numbers of people voting are nothing more than an invitation to &#8220;pretty straightforwardly immoral behavior.&#8221;   Will&#39;s argument is that those who are being encouraged to vote are primarily the poor and/or the young, who, although he does not come right out and say it in so many words, are simply by virtue of their youth and/or poverty <i>de facto</i> &#8220;bad voters&#8221;.  In other words, they don&#39;t share Will&#39;s viewpoints or his votes for Republican candidates.  Yes, indeed, bad voters.  While Jason is encouraging everyone, no matter their economic condition or partisan choice, to not be a bad voter, Will is more interested in either continuing the practical disenfranchisement or adding to it of as many people as possible who will presumably vote for the other side.  What an intellectually dishonest argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Christie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17643</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17643</guid>
		<description>The Lysander Spooner demographic seems to me, having read as much of Spooner as I could stomach, to be made up of people who are emotionally still at the two-year old stage of believing that it is, if one can just find the magic method, possible to always have one&#039;s own way.   They simply have not been able to come to terms with the human condition, that is, the fact, that human beings are as subject to the laws of the universe as is, well, everything else in the universe, from the physical laws that have created the universe as it exists today to the biological laws that determine our characteristics as living beings.  Intellectually, of course, they have developed the ability to produce wonderfully eloquent and beautifully reasoned justifications for why the latter imperatives are so distasteful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Lysander Spooner demographic seems to me, having read as much of Spooner as I could stomach, to be made up of people who are emotionally still at the two-year old stage of believing that it is, if one can just find the magic method, possible to always have one&#39;s own way.   They simply have not been able to come to terms with the human condition, that is, the fact, that human beings are as subject to the laws of the universe as is, well, everything else in the universe, from the physical laws that have created the universe as it exists today to the biological laws that determine our characteristics as living beings.  Intellectually, of course, they have developed the ability to produce wonderfully eloquent and beautifully reasoned justifications for why the latter imperatives are so distasteful.</p>
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		<title>By: Christie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17641</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17641</guid>
		<description>Will seems to be quite right in suggesting that he uses Jason&#039;s paper as a jumping off point for a different argument.  &quot;Polluting the Vote&quot; is a mildly interesting if ultimately unconvincing argument about the &lt;i&gt;responsibility&lt;/i&gt; of individuals to abstain from voting if they &quot;vote badly&quot;.  Will then goes on to argue that efforts to increase the numbers of people voting are nothing more than an invitation to &quot;pretty straightforwardly immoral behavior.&quot;   Will&#039;s argument is that those who are being encouraged to vote are primarily the poor and/or the young, who, although he does not come right out and say it in so many words, are simply by virtue of their youth and/or poverty &lt;i&gt;de facto&lt;/i&gt; &quot;bad voters&quot;.  In other words, they don&#039;t share Will&#039;s viewpoints or his votes for Republican candidates.  Yes, indeed, bad voters.  While Jason is encouraging everyone, no matter their economic condition or partisan choice, to not be a bad voter, Will is more interested in either continuing the practical disenfranchisement or adding to it of as many people as possible who will presumably vote for the other side.  What an intellectually dishonest argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will seems to be quite right in suggesting that he uses Jason&#39;s paper as a jumping off point for a different argument.  &#8220;Polluting the Vote&#8221; is a mildly interesting if ultimately unconvincing argument about the <i>responsibility</i> of individuals to abstain from voting if they &#8220;vote badly&#8221;.  Will then goes on to argue that efforts to increase the numbers of people voting are nothing more than an invitation to &#8220;pretty straightforwardly immoral behavior.&#8221;   Will&#39;s argument is that those who are being encouraged to vote are primarily the poor and/or the young, who, although he does not come right out and say it in so many words, are simply by virtue of their youth and/or poverty <i>de facto</i> &#8220;bad voters&#8221;.  In other words, they don&#39;t share Will&#39;s viewpoints or his votes for Republican candidates.  Yes, indeed, bad voters.  While Jason is encouraging everyone, no matter their economic condition or partisan choice, to not be a bad voter, Will is more interested in either continuing the practical disenfranchisement or adding to it of as many people as possible who will presumably vote for the other side.  What an intellectually dishonest argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Christie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17640</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17640</guid>
		<description>The Lysander Spooner demographic seems to me, having read as much of Spooner as I could stomach, to be made up of people who are emotionally still at the two-year old stage of believing that it is, if one can just find the magic method, possible to always have one&#039;s own way.   They simply have not been able to come to terms with the human condition, that is, the fact, that human beings are as subject to the laws of the universe as is, well, everything else in the universe, from the physical laws that have created the universe as it exists today to the biological laws that determine our characteristics as living beings.  Intellectually, of course, they have developed the ability to produce wonderfully eloquent and beautifully reasoned justifications for why the latter imperatives are so distasteful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Lysander Spooner demographic seems to me, having read as much of Spooner as I could stomach, to be made up of people who are emotionally still at the two-year old stage of believing that it is, if one can just find the magic method, possible to always have one&#39;s own way.   They simply have not been able to come to terms with the human condition, that is, the fact, that human beings are as subject to the laws of the universe as is, well, everything else in the universe, from the physical laws that have created the universe as it exists today to the biological laws that determine our characteristics as living beings.  Intellectually, of course, they have developed the ability to produce wonderfully eloquent and beautifully reasoned justifications for why the latter imperatives are so distasteful.</p>
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		<title>By: In defense of voting &#171; High Variance</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17639</link>
		<dc:creator>In defense of voting &#171; High Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17639</guid>
		<description>[...] bad for a democracy &#8212; we&#8217;d be better off if they just stayed home. There&#8217;s more  here.  Bryan Caplan has been arguing the same thing. He notes that ill-informed voters aren&#8217;t just [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] bad for a democracy &#8212; we&#8217;d be better off if they just stayed home. There&#8217;s more  here.  Bryan Caplan has been arguing the same thing. He notes that ill-informed voters aren&#8217;t just [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I voted early in Pima County &#171; Connor Mendenhall</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17638</link>
		<dc:creator>I voted early in Pima County &#171; Connor Mendenhall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17638</guid>
		<description>[...] and mathematical reality of voting, and moral and philosophical arguments for not voting, not voting badly, and voluntarily voting. Although this year&#8217;s Presidential election is a Crest-Colgate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and mathematical reality of voting, and moral and philosophical arguments for not voting, not voting badly, and voluntarily voting. Although this year&#8217;s Presidential election is a Crest-Colgate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17637</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17637</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m done with this exchange, because I don&#039;t think you have a very good grasp on what is happening in the real world, and you seem to be developing some sort of resentment against me that I really don&#039;t care to deal with.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;First, there isn&#039;t an &quot;increasing&quot; importance of &quot;democracy&quot; in our lives.  In fact, the United States has never been democratically run.  As I mentioned in my comments to Jason&#039;s article, a fundamental premise of his argument is that voting is connected to policy.  But, I was never asked my opinion on the Iraq invasion, the bailout, or reducing the deficit.  There are many problems in the world, but majoritarian tyranny isn&#039;t one, in the United States or anywhere else.  My personal belief is that the United States would be far better if it were more democratic, and not run by special interests.  I also believe that issues like dating won&#039;t and shouldn&#039;t be decided democratically, because we have a constitution that limits the intrusion of government into the realm of personal freedom.  You - and I - might wish that the scope of the protection of personal freedoms be expanded, but that has nothing to do with whether the decisions that remain to be made by the government should be made through representative democracy.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;These happen to be the principles that the nation was allegedly founded upon, although never put into practice.  I didn&#039;t invent these ideas, or even particularly promulgate them. I am not your problem.  I can have limitless adultation of democracy, and you can believe that adulation is corrupt, but that really doesn&#039;t make a bit of difference in either of our lives.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am not running your life, or asking to, nor is anyone else.  The reality is that elections will continue, and the relatively weak democratic elements of our government will probably not change much in our lifetimes, though you want them reduced and I want them increased.  But you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, against me, or someone else.  You will not get what you want from the government, and neither will I.  What you do with your situation is up to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m done with this exchange, because I don&#39;t think you have a very good grasp on what is happening in the real world, and you seem to be developing some sort of resentment against me that I really don&#39;t care to deal with.</p>
<p>First, there isn&#39;t an &#8220;increasing&#8221; importance of &#8220;democracy&#8221; in our lives.  In fact, the United States has never been democratically run.  As I mentioned in my comments to Jason&#39;s article, a fundamental premise of his argument is that voting is connected to policy.  But, I was never asked my opinion on the Iraq invasion, the bailout, or reducing the deficit.  There are many problems in the world, but majoritarian tyranny isn&#39;t one, in the United States or anywhere else.  My personal belief is that the United States would be far better if it were more democratic, and not run by special interests.  I also believe that issues like dating won&#39;t and shouldn&#39;t be decided democratically, because we have a constitution that limits the intrusion of government into the realm of personal freedom.  You &#8211; and I &#8211; might wish that the scope of the protection of personal freedoms be expanded, but that has nothing to do with whether the decisions that remain to be made by the government should be made through representative democracy.</p>
<p>These happen to be the principles that the nation was allegedly founded upon, although never put into practice.  I didn&#39;t invent these ideas, or even particularly promulgate them. I am not your problem.  I can have limitless adultation of democracy, and you can believe that adulation is corrupt, but that really doesn&#39;t make a bit of difference in either of our lives.  </p>
<p>I am not running your life, or asking to, nor is anyone else.  The reality is that elections will continue, and the relatively weak democratic elements of our government will probably not change much in our lifetimes, though you want them reduced and I want them increased.  But you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, against me, or someone else.  You will not get what you want from the government, and neither will I.  What you do with your situation is up to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17636</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17636</guid>
		<description>Passive-aggressive much?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t resent you personally; I don&#039;t know you. I disagree with your views on the value of electoral politics, just as you disagree with mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Passive-aggressive much?</p>
<p>I don&#39;t resent you personally; I don&#39;t know you. I disagree with your views on the value of electoral politics, just as you disagree with mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17635</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17635</guid>
		<description>Interesting.  I&#039;m just a guy on a messageboard with an opinion.  I have no special training in political philosophy and no position in the government, but it&#039;s quite possible that my opinion is wrong.   It happens to be my honest opinion.  I&#039;m fairly opinionated, and enjoy debate, and have been wrong more than once in my life, and, as has been mentioned, I can be a little rude.  I apologize for my rudeness, but not my opinion.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;I&quot; am not &quot;playing&quot; any &quot;game.&quot;  &quot;I&quot; am not refusing to let you &quot;out &quot;- I&#039;m not even sure what you want to be let &quot;out&quot; of.  I&#039;m not even forcing you to engage in conversation with you, but somehow you seem to resent me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m sorry you feel that way.  Good luck to you in your quest for personal happiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting.  I&#39;m just a guy on a messageboard with an opinion.  I have no special training in political philosophy and no position in the government, but it&#39;s quite possible that my opinion is wrong.   It happens to be my honest opinion.  I&#39;m fairly opinionated, and enjoy debate, and have been wrong more than once in my life, and, as has been mentioned, I can be a little rude.  I apologize for my rudeness, but not my opinion.</p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8221; am not &#8220;playing&#8221; any &#8220;game.&#8221;  &#8220;I&#8221; am not refusing to let you &#8220;out &#8220;- I&#39;m not even sure what you want to be let &#8220;out&#8221; of.  I&#39;m not even forcing you to engage in conversation with you, but somehow you seem to resent me.</p>
<p>I&#39;m sorry you feel that way.  Good luck to you in your quest for personal happiness.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/10/05/new-on-free-will-polluting-the-polls-will-jason-brennan/#comment-17634</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1863#comment-17634</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t consider voting (except perhaps in self-defense, though even in that case it is almost always just a waste of time). I would consider convincing other people not to vote, since I don&#039;t think it&#039;s healthy for people to always look towards elections and politicians whenever they have problems that need solving.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Lysander Spooner demographic has no interest in playing your sorts of political games. We want out. You won&#039;t let us. That is unfortunate. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Meanwhile, we will continue to point out that democracy rests on irrational and immoral foundations - that most voters are not equipped with either the knowledge or the incentives to run other people&#039;s lives for them, and that it is wrong for them to try, and wrong for people to encourage eligible voters to participate more, when they should be participating less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#39;t consider voting (except perhaps in self-defense, though even in that case it is almost always just a waste of time). I would consider convincing other people not to vote, since I don&#39;t think it&#39;s healthy for people to always look towards elections and politicians whenever they have problems that need solving.</p>
<p>The Lysander Spooner demographic has no interest in playing your sorts of political games. We want out. You won&#39;t let us. That is unfortunate. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, we will continue to point out that democracy rests on irrational and immoral foundations &#8211; that most voters are not equipped with either the knowledge or the incentives to run other people&#39;s lives for them, and that it is wrong for them to try, and wrong for people to encourage eligible voters to participate more, when they should be participating less.</p>
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