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	<title>Comments on: Grandly Nugatory? Hardly</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Alexjr</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16358</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16358</guid>
		<description>Long discussion here</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long discussion here</p>
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		<title>By: Alexjr</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16357</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16357</guid>
		<description>Long discussion here</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long discussion here</p>
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		<title>By: Wilkinson on Democrats vs. Republicans &#171; William&#8217;s Continued Adventures</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16342</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilkinson on Democrats vs. Republicans &#171; William&#8217;s Continued Adventures</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16342</guid>
		<description>[...] 18, 2008   In a post that vaguely ties in with my earlier thoughts on Howard Zinn, Will Wilkinson writes good stuff, including this paragraph: It turns out that the Democratic party is also run by very, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 18, 2008   In a post that vaguely ties in with my earlier thoughts on Howard Zinn, Will Wilkinson writes good stuff, including this paragraph: It turns out that the Democratic party is also run by very, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson / The Fly Bottle &#187; Blog Archive &#187; GNP: Partisan and Meta-Partisan Critiques</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16341</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson / The Fly Bottle &#187; Blog Archive &#187; GNP: Partisan and Meta-Partisan Critiques</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16341</guid>
		<description>[...] which is obviously a banging-head-against-wall sort of thing to do. The bit he quotes was a coda to a post that defended Grand New Party against the charge that it is irrelevant because the authors are too naive to see that the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] which is obviously a banging-head-against-wall sort of thing to do. The bit he quotes was a coda to a post that defended Grand New Party against the charge that it is irrelevant because the authors are too naive to see that the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: longbongsilver</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16356</link>
		<dc:creator>longbongsilver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16356</guid>
		<description>KJ: I&#039;m not sure what Will&#039;s explanation would be, but I&#039;m inclined to believe the reason why libertarianism seems &quot;sidelined&quot; is that it is inherently an anti-political ideology.  When you break it down to what actually happens, popular politics is mutual armed robbery, each group taking turns royally screwing the others -- ostensibly &quot;for their own good&quot; mostly, but sometimes nakedly for self benefit.  How do you &quot;pick a side&quot; in a game that you personally believe cheats everyone in the end anyway?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In the short-term, there are things libertarians can do, though most wouldn&#039;t be recognized as particularly libertarian because they&#039;d be seen as single-issue advocacy and action.  But in the long run, the libertarian goal is the end of politics as we know it.  This is the confusion behind libertarianism within the US political system, it doesn&#039;t have much success because it fails to realize 1) how radical it is in principle &amp; 2) that such radicalism is not a bad thing.  The movement would be more intellectually honest -- and IMO more effective -- if rather than try to accept mainstream politics its adherents split off based on what their number one issue was, presenting (only when asked) the sum of its parts as being &quot;pragmatic anarchism&quot;, nothing more, nothing less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KJ: I&#39;m not sure what Will&#39;s explanation would be, but I&#39;m inclined to believe the reason why libertarianism seems &#8220;sidelined&#8221; is that it is inherently an anti-political ideology.  When you break it down to what actually happens, popular politics is mutual armed robbery, each group taking turns royally screwing the others &#8212; ostensibly &#8220;for their own good&#8221; mostly, but sometimes nakedly for self benefit.  How do you &#8220;pick a side&#8221; in a game that you personally believe cheats everyone in the end anyway?</p>
<p>In the short-term, there are things libertarians can do, though most wouldn&#39;t be recognized as particularly libertarian because they&#39;d be seen as single-issue advocacy and action.  But in the long run, the libertarian goal is the end of politics as we know it.  This is the confusion behind libertarianism within the US political system, it doesn&#39;t have much success because it fails to realize 1) how radical it is in principle &#038; 2) that such radicalism is not a bad thing.  The movement would be more intellectually honest &#8212; and IMO more effective &#8212; if rather than try to accept mainstream politics its adherents split off based on what their number one issue was, presenting (only when asked) the sum of its parts as being &#8220;pragmatic anarchism&#8221;, nothing more, nothing less.</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; Tired</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16340</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; Tired</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16340</guid>
		<description>[...] from really rich Americans to relatively rich but not-so-rich-for-Americans Americans, or both. ~Will Wilkinson on Grand New [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from really rich Americans to relatively rich but not-so-rich-for-Americans Americans, or both. ~Will Wilkinson on Grand New [...]</p>
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		<title>By: rousseau</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16355</link>
		<dc:creator>rousseau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16355</guid>
		<description>According to a study of the candidates&#039; tax proposals by the Tax Policy Center, by 2012 under Obama&#039;s proposals the after-tax income of the lowest quntile would rise 5.4 percent, the top .1 percent would fall 12.4 percent, and the 95-99th percentiles&#039; would fall 2.0 percent.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Under McCain&#039;s proposals, the lowest quintile&#039;s income would rise .9 percent, the top .1 percent&#039;s income would rise 11.6 percent, and the 95-99th percentile&#039;s income would rise 5.3 percent.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Capital is sacred to Republicans, if you get your income in this form, they tax if more favorably than if your income takes the form of wages and salaries.  As a result of this policy difference and others, as Larry Bartels has shown, under Democratic administrations the poor and rich gain income alike, under Republican administrations, only the rich gain (and the economy as a whole grows less rapidly than it does under Democrats). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If Wilkinson means to suggest that unclubble (illegal) immigrant workers are mistreated and exploited, and that this should be a matter of prime concern to us all, I take his point. But if he means to suggest that the working class--the lower half and especially lowest tenth of the income distribution--doesn&#039;t fare better under Democrats than under Republicans, I believe that the record demonstrates otherwise, and that, judging from the candidates&#039;  tax proposals, this partisan pattern will persist. Under McCain  the &quot;working class&quot; will lack the necessary means to exercise their rights in a worthwhile way, and it will seem pointless for them to dream up some relatively long-term plans, because for good reason they will doubt whether they will be able to enact them. But the dreams of the rich, even allowing for the very good run they&#039;ve had the last seven years, will be fulfilled as never before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to a study of the candidates&#39; tax proposals by the Tax Policy Center, by 2012 under Obama&#39;s proposals the after-tax income of the lowest quntile would rise 5.4 percent, the top .1 percent would fall 12.4 percent, and the 95-99th percentiles&#39; would fall 2.0 percent.</p>
<p>Under McCain&#39;s proposals, the lowest quintile&#39;s income would rise .9 percent, the top .1 percent&#39;s income would rise 11.6 percent, and the 95-99th percentile&#39;s income would rise 5.3 percent.</p>
<p>Capital is sacred to Republicans, if you get your income in this form, they tax if more favorably than if your income takes the form of wages and salaries.  As a result of this policy difference and others, as Larry Bartels has shown, under Democratic administrations the poor and rich gain income alike, under Republican administrations, only the rich gain (and the economy as a whole grows less rapidly than it does under Democrats). </p>
<p>If Wilkinson means to suggest that unclubble (illegal) immigrant workers are mistreated and exploited, and that this should be a matter of prime concern to us all, I take his point. But if he means to suggest that the working class&#8211;the lower half and especially lowest tenth of the income distribution&#8211;doesn&#39;t fare better under Democrats than under Republicans, I believe that the record demonstrates otherwise, and that, judging from the candidates&#39;  tax proposals, this partisan pattern will persist. Under McCain  the &#8220;working class&#8221; will lack the necessary means to exercise their rights in a worthwhile way, and it will seem pointless for them to dream up some relatively long-term plans, because for good reason they will doubt whether they will be able to enact them. But the dreams of the rich, even allowing for the very good run they&#39;ve had the last seven years, will be fulfilled as never before.</p>
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		<title>By: mk</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16354</link>
		<dc:creator>mk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16354</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;no matter how many times we ruin the 7th inning stretch with that god damn song.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take Me Out to the Ballgame?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I can respect KJ&#039;s point, which is that to effect change you have to step into the fray, and politics is wild enough that if you have to become a bit of a hack or a soldier, so be it.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But the criticism of those &quot;on the sidelines&quot; is a bit over the top. People on the sidelines serve a purpose, and people in the fray serve a purpose. We all seek out the spot that seems best for us.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m heartened that 10-20% of Americans are Independents. I don&#039;t know if that could really translate into a movement against pandering, dishonesty and hackishness in politics. Probably not, because even those people are probably pretty irrational.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>no matter how many times we ruin the 7th inning stretch with that god damn song.</i></p>
<p>Take Me Out to the Ballgame?</p>
<p>I can respect KJ&#39;s point, which is that to effect change you have to step into the fray, and politics is wild enough that if you have to become a bit of a hack or a soldier, so be it.</p>
<p>But the criticism of those &#8220;on the sidelines&#8221; is a bit over the top. People on the sidelines serve a purpose, and people in the fray serve a purpose. We all seek out the spot that seems best for us.</p>
<p>I&#39;m heartened that 10-20% of Americans are Independents. I don&#39;t know if that could really translate into a movement against pandering, dishonesty and hackishness in politics. Probably not, because even those people are probably pretty irrational.</p>
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		<title>By: KJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16353</link>
		<dc:creator>KJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16353</guid>
		<description>I like Will&#039;s blog, but I&#039;m not impressed with this post.  Comes across as another centrist, mushy middle, slice the baby in half sort of fallacious rant.  Will may not appreciate the stereotype that Hayes is pushing but stereotypes are usually based in some sort of reality and &quot;subvert the welfare state and distribute income upwards&quot; is sure as true about Republicans as &quot;being good at basketball&quot; is true about Blacks.  Perhaps not all Blacks are good at basketball but if I&#039;m putting together my Olympic team it ain&#039;t going to be very white.  And as a liberal I&#039;m certainly am hateful of the idea of the essential awesomeness of America.  I think we have to work at being awesome and don&#039;t think God Blessed us with awesomeness no matter how many times we ruin the 7th inning stretch with that god damn song.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Basically I see GNP as the slow ritual leftward shift of the Republican party and Conservative politics in general.  The pragmatic left that has guided this country quite well when given the chance will continue to be right about most things, the Republicans will realize it 10-30 years after the fact, and Libertarians will squeal from the sidelines wondering why no one wants to implement their Utopian logic.  Get in the partisan game already and pick a side.  There&#039;s too much to bicker about within the partisan gates to stand outside of them throwing in Cato essays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Will&#39;s blog, but I&#39;m not impressed with this post.  Comes across as another centrist, mushy middle, slice the baby in half sort of fallacious rant.  Will may not appreciate the stereotype that Hayes is pushing but stereotypes are usually based in some sort of reality and &#8220;subvert the welfare state and distribute income upwards&#8221; is sure as true about Republicans as &#8220;being good at basketball&#8221; is true about Blacks.  Perhaps not all Blacks are good at basketball but if I&#39;m putting together my Olympic team it ain&#39;t going to be very white.  And as a liberal I&#39;m certainly am hateful of the idea of the essential awesomeness of America.  I think we have to work at being awesome and don&#39;t think God Blessed us with awesomeness no matter how many times we ruin the 7th inning stretch with that god damn song.</p>
<p>Basically I see GNP as the slow ritual leftward shift of the Republican party and Conservative politics in general.  The pragmatic left that has guided this country quite well when given the chance will continue to be right about most things, the Republicans will realize it 10-30 years after the fact, and Libertarians will squeal from the sidelines wondering why no one wants to implement their Utopian logic.  Get in the partisan game already and pick a side.  There&#39;s too much to bicker about within the partisan gates to stand outside of them throwing in Cato essays.</p>
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		<title>By: LouisNapoleon</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/07/15/grandly-nugatory-hardly/#comment-16352</link>
		<dc:creator>LouisNapoleon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1547#comment-16352</guid>
		<description>Per the last paragraph: I can agree with your sentiments, and can appreciate a good rant, but like all rants, I think it might get away from you. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Certainly concern for the poorest members of the society, along with concerns for social mobility and a just distribution of goods, are not always morally bogus--even if they are presented like so in GNP. Nor are these concerns morally dispensable. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I hope then that you don&#039;t take your club analogy too seriously. Deciding just economic and social policies are a lot less like currying favor and squabbling over alliances in your college fraternity that it is like it. Put differently, it&#039;s not clear whether your indignation is directed towards caring for a ginned-up and manipulated &#039;working-class&#039; for the sake of electoral advantage, or caring for the working class at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Per the last paragraph: I can agree with your sentiments, and can appreciate a good rant, but like all rants, I think it might get away from you. </p>
<p>Certainly concern for the poorest members of the society, along with concerns for social mobility and a just distribution of goods, are not always morally bogus&#8211;even if they are presented like so in GNP. Nor are these concerns morally dispensable. </p>
<p>I hope then that you don&#39;t take your club analogy too seriously. Deciding just economic and social policies are a lot less like currying favor and squabbling over alliances in your college fraternity that it is like it. Put differently, it&#39;s not clear whether your indignation is directed towards caring for a ginned-up and manipulated &#39;working-class&#39; for the sake of electoral advantage, or caring for the working class at all.</p>
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