Comments on: Comical Conservative Conditionals http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/ The Sweet Release of Reason Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000 hourly 1 By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13407 Will Wilkinson Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:47:31 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13407 Gene, Like I said, if by MORAL ORDER you just mean CAUSALITY than that's fine. There is in fact a natural order that determines what means will achieve what ends. How is this "sophistry"? I suspect you know full well that most uses of "objective moral order" refer to superstitious nonsense. "Homosexuality defies the objective moral order" ... that kind of thing. Do you think creationist essentialism is what "objective moral order" is about? Because I'm afraid that what most conservative mean by it. Gene, Like I said, if by MORAL ORDER you just mean CAUSALITY than that’s fine. There is in fact a natural order that determines what means will achieve what ends. How is this “sophistry”? I suspect you know full well that most uses of “objective moral order” refer to superstitious nonsense. “Homosexuality defies the objective moral order” … that kind of thing. Do you think creationist essentialism is what “objective moral order” is about? Because I’m afraid that what most conservative mean by it.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13417 Will Wilkinson Sun, 06 Apr 2008 22:47:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13417 Gene, Like I said, if by MORAL ORDER you just mean CAUSALITY than that's fine. There is in fact a natural order that determines what means will achieve what ends. How is this "sophistry"? I suspect you know full well that most uses of "objective moral order" refer to superstitious nonsense. "Homosexuality defies the objective moral order" ... that kind of thing. Do you think creationist essentialism is what "objective moral order" is about? Because I'm afraid that what most conservative mean by it. Gene, Like I said, if by MORAL ORDER you just mean CAUSALITY than that’s fine. There is in fact a natural order that determines what means will achieve what ends. How is this “sophistry”? I suspect you know full well that most uses of “objective moral order” refer to superstitious nonsense. “Homosexuality defies the objective moral order” … that kind of thing. Do you think creationist essentialism is what “objective moral order” is about? Because I’m afraid that what most conservative mean by it.

]]> By: AemJeff http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13406 AemJeff Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:44:55 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13406 What good is freedom if you can't live? Some folks seem to be arguing that anything other than absolutism is sophistry. "Liberty" is understandable in terms other than distance from State supervision. I'll gladly trade theoretical choice in health care providers (few of us are really in a position to so choose), for the freedom to choose my employer regardless of my need for health insurance, for instance. What good is freedom if you can’t live? Some folks seem to be arguing that anything other than absolutism is sophistry. “Liberty” is understandable in terms other than distance from State supervision. I’ll gladly trade theoretical choice in health care providers (few of us are really in a position to so choose), for the freedom to choose my employer regardless of my need for health insurance, for instance.

]]> By: AemJeff http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13416 AemJeff Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:44:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13416 What good is freedom if you can't live? Some folks seem to be arguing that anything other than absolutism is sophistry. "Liberty" is understandable in terms other than distance from State supervision. I'll gladly trade theoretical choice in health care providers (few of us are really in a position to so choose), for the freedom to choose my employer regardless of my need for health insurance, for instance. What good is freedom if you can’t live? Some folks seem to be arguing that anything other than absolutism is sophistry. “Liberty” is understandable in terms other than distance from State supervision. I’ll gladly trade theoretical choice in health care providers (few of us are really in a position to so choose), for the freedom to choose my employer regardless of my need for health insurance, for instance.

]]> By: Gene Callahan http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13405 Gene Callahan Sun, 06 Apr 2008 00:02:12 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13405 "I defend liberty because it tends to promote things like health, wealth, longevity, happness, innovation, progress, creativity, and so on..." Hmm, now just why would this follwing this MORAL principle OBJECTIVELY lead to these sorts of results? It's as though there were a certain ORDER behind it, or something? But if there's one thing education in modern, analytical philosophy teaches you, it's how to hide from the obvious behind a web of sophistry. “I defend liberty because it tends to promote things like health, wealth, longevity, happness, innovation, progress, creativity, and so on…”

Hmm, now just why would this follwing this MORAL principle OBJECTIVELY lead to these sorts of results? It’s as though there were a certain ORDER behind it, or something?

But if there’s one thing education in modern, analytical philosophy teaches you, it’s how to hide from the obvious behind a web of sophistry.

]]> By: Gene Callahan http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13415 Gene Callahan Sun, 06 Apr 2008 00:02:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13415 "I defend liberty because it tends to promote things like health, wealth, longevity, happness, innovation, progress, creativity, and so on..." Hmm, now just why would this follwing this MORAL principle OBJECTIVELY lead to these sorts of results? It's as though there were a certain ORDER behind it, or something? But if there's one thing education in modern, analytical philosophy teaches you, it's how to hide from the obvious behind a web of sophistry. “I defend liberty because it tends to promote things like health, wealth, longevity, happness, innovation, progress, creativity, and so on…”

Hmm, now just why would this follwing this MORAL principle OBJECTIVELY lead to these sorts of results? It’s as though there were a certain ORDER behind it, or something?

But if there’s one thing education in modern, analytical philosophy teaches you, it’s how to hide from the obvious behind a web of sophistry.

]]> By: Christopher Monnier http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13404 Christopher Monnier Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:42:11 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13404 I value liberty because what good is <i>living</i> if you can't be free? To live is to be free. To merely exist is to be a slave. I value liberty because what good is living if you can’t be free? To live is to be free. To merely exist is to be a slave.

]]> By: Christopher Monnier http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13414 Christopher Monnier Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:42:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13414 I value liberty because what good is <i>living</i> if you can't be free? To live is to be free. To merely exist is to be a slave. I value liberty because what good is living if you can’t be free? To live is to be free. To merely exist is to be a slave.

]]> By: x. trapnel http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13403 x. trapnel Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:11:22 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13403 Do you have any posts where you set out more fully your moral theory, Will? In particular, I'm curious about your view on the nature of duties and the like (questions of supererogation, etc.). I lean towards a Pettit-ish global consequentialism, but it seems like such a view will identify a much more narrowly defined set of claim-rights and duties than you appear to endorse. Do you have any posts where you set out more fully your moral theory, Will? In particular, I’m curious about your view on the nature of duties and the like (questions of supererogation, etc.). I lean towards a Pettit-ish global consequentialism, but it seems like such a view will identify a much more narrowly defined set of claim-rights and duties than you appear to endorse.

]]> By: x. trapnel http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13413 x. trapnel Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:11:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13413 Do you have any posts where you set out more fully your moral theory, Will? In particular, I'm curious about your view on the nature of duties and the like (questions of supererogation, etc.). I lean towards a Pettit-ish global consequentialism, but it seems like such a view will identify a much more narrowly defined set of claim-rights and duties than you appear to endorse. Do you have any posts where you set out more fully your moral theory, Will? In particular, I’m curious about your view on the nature of duties and the like (questions of supererogation, etc.). I lean towards a Pettit-ish global consequentialism, but it seems like such a view will identify a much more narrowly defined set of claim-rights and duties than you appear to endorse.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13402 Will Wilkinson Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:31:35 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13402 MDM, I do value liberty for its own sake, and I'd be happy trade a bit of some other things I value for more liberty, if it came down to it. But I don't hold much stock in "it's just good, dammit" as an argumentative strategy, so I find it pretty useful to point out what it's good for, as well. Since it's good for so many things that so many people value, that's a pretty great way of arguing. MDM, I do value liberty for its own sake, and I’d be happy trade a bit of some other things I value for more liberty, if it came down to it. But I don’t hold much stock in “it’s just good, dammit” as an argumentative strategy, so I find it pretty useful to point out what it’s good for, as well. Since it’s good for so many things that so many people value, that’s a pretty great way of arguing.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13412 Will Wilkinson Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:31:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13412 MDM, I do value liberty for its own sake, and I'd be happy trade a bit of some other things I value for more liberty, if it came down to it. But I don't hold much stock in "it's just good, dammit" as an argumentative strategy, so I find it pretty useful to point out what it's good for, as well. Since it's good for so many things that so many people value, that's a pretty great way of arguing. MDM, I do value liberty for its own sake, and I’d be happy trade a bit of some other things I value for more liberty, if it came down to it. But I don’t hold much stock in “it’s just good, dammit” as an argumentative strategy, so I find it pretty useful to point out what it’s good for, as well. Since it’s good for so many things that so many people value, that’s a pretty great way of arguing.

]]> By: Jolly Bloger http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13401 Jolly Bloger Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:30:07 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13401 I second MDM. Pinning liberty to health, wealth, etc. is potentially dangerous. Sometimes liberty and individualism work against health and wealth, or at least slow their progress. I would be against a totalitarian system even if it could provide all of those "basic" values more efficiently than a completely free system. I second MDM. Pinning liberty to health, wealth, etc. is potentially dangerous. Sometimes liberty and individualism work against health and wealth, or at least slow their progress. I would be against a totalitarian system even if it could provide all of those “basic” values more efficiently than a completely free system.

]]> By: Jolly Bloger http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13410 Jolly Bloger Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:30:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13410 I second MDM. Pinning liberty to health, wealth, etc. is potentially dangerous. Sometimes liberty and individualism work against health and wealth, or at least slow their progress. I would be against a totalitarian system even if it could provide all of those "basic" values more efficiently than a completely free system. I second MDM. Pinning liberty to health, wealth, etc. is potentially dangerous. Sometimes liberty and individualism work against health and wealth, or at least slow their progress. I would be against a totalitarian system even if it could provide all of those “basic” values more efficiently than a completely free system.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/04/03/comical-conservative-conditionals/#comment-13400 Will Wilkinson Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:28:14 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=1378#comment-13400 Indeed! Do Jihadis care about conceptions of the objective moral order different from theirs? Indeed! Do Jihadis care about conceptions of the objective moral order different from theirs?

]]>