Comments on: The Moral Claims of Non-Citizens http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/ The Sweet Release of Reason Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000 hourly 1 By: JSBolton http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11976 JSBolton Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:18:49 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11976 It ought to be asked, how can a prospective immigrant have rights here, just by starting to move this way? Is there some good to the species to be gained by inventing an obligation of the net taxpayers of our citizenry, to extend protection through our government, out to all who say they want it? How do we know that foreigners here have rights and not privileges only? More cooperation of whatever kind is always better? What about cooperation by foreigners in increasing aggression on the net taxpayers of our citizenry, is that part of the dynamic cooperation that generates increased utility as it increases? The intellectually honest and sincere would want to answer these questions, or not? It ought to be asked, how can a prospective immigrant have rights here, just by starting to move this way? Is there some good to the species to be gained by inventing an obligation of the net taxpayers of our citizenry, to extend protection through our government, out to all who say they want it? How do we know that foreigners here have rights and not privileges only? More cooperation of whatever kind is always better? What about cooperation by foreigners in increasing aggression on the net taxpayers of our citizenry, is that part of the dynamic cooperation that generates increased utility as it increases? The intellectually honest and sincere would want to answer these questions, or not?

]]> By: JSBolton http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11977 JSBolton Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:18:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11977 It ought to be asked, how can a prospective immigrant have rights here, just by starting to move this way? Is there some good to the species to be gained by inventing an obligation of the net taxpayers of our citizenry, to extend protection through our government, out to all who say they want it? How do we know that foreigners here have rights and not privileges only? More cooperation of whatever kind is always better? What about cooperation by foreigners in increasing aggression on the net taxpayers of our citizenry, is that part of the dynamic cooperation that generates increased utility as it increases? The intellectually honest and sincere would want to answer these questions, or not? It ought to be asked, how can a prospective immigrant have rights here, just by starting to move this way? Is there some good to the species to be gained by inventing an obligation of the net taxpayers of our citizenry, to extend protection through our government, out to all who say they want it? How do we know that foreigners here have rights and not privileges only? More cooperation of whatever kind is always better? What about cooperation by foreigners in increasing aggression on the net taxpayers of our citizenry, is that part of the dynamic cooperation that generates increased utility as it increases? The intellectually honest and sincere would want to answer these questions, or not?

]]> By: Micha Ghertner http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11975 Micha Ghertner Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:06:57 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11975 I'm not going to get into citing examples of non-State enforcement mechanisms in this thread; I know you're well read enough and familiar with the arguments already. The question of stability of civil institutions in a statist world is a good and tough one, but again, far beyond the point I wanted to make here, and far off topic. I’m not going to get into citing examples of non-State enforcement mechanisms in this thread; I know you’re well read enough and familiar with the arguments already. The question of stability of civil institutions in a statist world is a good and tough one, but again, far beyond the point I wanted to make here, and far off topic.

]]> By: Micha Ghertner http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12016 Micha Ghertner Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:06:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12016 I'm not going to get into citing examples of non-State enforcement mechanisms in this thread; I know you're well read enough and familiar with the arguments already. The question of stability of civil institutions in a statist world is a good and tough one, but again, far beyond the point I wanted to make here, and far off topic. I’m not going to get into citing examples of non-State enforcement mechanisms in this thread; I know you’re well read enough and familiar with the arguments already. The question of stability of civil institutions in a statist world is a good and tough one, but again, far beyond the point I wanted to make here, and far off topic.

]]> By: TGGP http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11974 TGGP Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:31:21 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11974 <i>a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.</i> What are some other ones and why do they matter if the State can just drive them out of business? a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.
What are some other ones and why do they matter if the State can just drive them out of business?

]]> By: TGGP http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12015 TGGP Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:31:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12015 <i>a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.</i> What are some other ones and why do they matter if the State can just drive them out of business? a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.
What are some other ones and why do they matter if the State can just drive them out of business?

]]> By: Micha Ghertner http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11973 Micha Ghertner Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:37:40 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11973 <i>Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?</i> I don't recall ever claiming I knew of such a mechanism. The lack of such a mechanism, of course, isn't incompatible with my statement that a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights. Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?

I don’t recall ever claiming I knew of such a mechanism. The lack of such a mechanism, of course, isn’t incompatible with my statement that a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.

]]> By: Micha Ghertner http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11999 Micha Ghertner Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:37:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11999 <i>Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?</i> I don't recall ever claiming I knew of such a mechanism. The lack of such a mechanism, of course, isn't incompatible with my statement that a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights. Micha, what rights-enforcement mechanism is capable of protecting me from the state?

I don’t recall ever claiming I knew of such a mechanism. The lack of such a mechanism, of course, isn’t incompatible with my statement that a state is not the only enforcement mechanism of rights.

]]> By: Larry http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11972 Larry Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:14:28 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11972 <i>You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all.</i> That's not what I said. What I did say was that if all moral/rights assertions are thought to be equally reasonable, that leads to a contradiction -- but of course that's only true if you think that any moral/rights assertions are reasonable at all. In your case, then, you can at least escape the contradiction. Whether you can escape harm from the state or anything/one else, being unable to claim protection or help, is another matter. You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all.

That’s not what I said. What I did say was that if all moral/rights assertions are thought to be equally reasonable, that leads to a contradiction — but of course that’s only true if you think that any moral/rights assertions are reasonable at all. In your case, then, you can at least escape the contradiction. Whether you can escape harm from the state or anything/one else, being unable to claim protection or help, is another matter.

]]> By: Larry http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12014 Larry Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:14:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12014 <i>You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all.</i> That's not what I said. What I did say was that if all moral/rights assertions are thought to be equally reasonable, that leads to a contradiction -- but of course that's only true if you think that any moral/rights assertions are reasonable at all. In your case, then, you can at least escape the contradiction. Whether you can escape harm from the state or anything/one else, being unable to claim protection or help, is another matter. You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all.

That’s not what I said. What I did say was that if all moral/rights assertions are thought to be equally reasonable, that leads to a contradiction — but of course that’s only true if you think that any moral/rights assertions are reasonable at all. In your case, then, you can at least escape the contradiction. Whether you can escape harm from the state or anything/one else, being unable to claim protection or help, is another matter.

]]> By: TGGP http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11971 TGGP Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:16:08 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11971 <i>what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.</i> You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all. Where is the contradiction? what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.
You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all. Where is the contradiction?

]]> By: TGGP http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12013 TGGP Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:16:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12013 <i>what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.</i> You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all. Where is the contradiction? what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.
You gave two hypothetical claims and said if morality/rights are meaningless they are equally valid, which is to say not valid at all. Where is the contradiction?

]]> By: Larry http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11970 Larry Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:49:18 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11970 The argument that a particular belief entails an absurdity is a refutation of that belief for everyone who's moved beyond Dada. You can, of course, believe or disbelieve in anything you like. But what you can't do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any <i>claim</i>. You're on your own, TG. The argument that a particular belief entails an absurdity is a refutation of that belief for everyone who’s moved beyond Dada.

You can, of course, believe or disbelieve in anything you like. But what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.

]]> By: Larry http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12012 Larry Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:49:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-12012 The argument that a particular belief entails an absurdity is a refutation of that belief for everyone who's moved beyond Dada. You can, of course, believe or disbelieve in anything you like. But what you can't do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any <i>claim</i>. You're on your own, TG. The argument that a particular belief entails an absurdity is a refutation of that belief for everyone who’s moved beyond Dada.

You can, of course, believe or disbelieve in anything you like. But what you can’t do, if rights, like morality, are meaningless absurdities, is make any claim. You’re on your own, TG.

]]> By: TGGP http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11969 TGGP Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:13:05 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/02/09/the-moral-claims-of-non-citizens/#comment-11969 If by reductio ad absurdum you mean proof by contradiction, it is fine and frequently used in mathematics. You gave an argument from incredulity that two opposing statements could be equally reasonable because it was simply absurd. Micha was the one who brought up rights-enforcing mechanisms. Just because I don't believe in rights doesn't mean I can't also disbelieve in a mechanism that can stand up to the state. If by reductio ad absurdum you mean proof by contradiction, it is fine and frequently used in mathematics. You gave an argument from incredulity that two opposing statements could be equally reasonable because it was simply absurd.

Micha was the one who brought up rights-enforcing mechanisms. Just because I don’t believe in rights doesn’t mean I can’t also disbelieve in a mechanism that can stand up to the state.

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