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	<title>Comments on: Guests in the Machine</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: bjk</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11198</link>
		<dc:creator>bjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11198</guid>
		<description>I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ.</p>
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		<title>By: bjk</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11216</link>
		<dc:creator>bjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11216</guid>
		<description>I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11197</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11197</guid>
		<description>Micha: &lt;em&gt;As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.&lt;/em&gt;

Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of &quot;nativist whining.&quot; Also interesting to note that the Irish weren&#039;t &quot;white.&quot; News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Micha: <em>As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</em></p>
<p>Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of &#8220;nativist whining.&#8221; Also interesting to note that the Irish weren&#8217;t &#8220;white.&#8221; News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11212</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11212</guid>
		<description>Micha: &lt;em&gt;As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.&lt;/em&gt;

Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of &quot;nativist whining.&quot; Also interesting to note that the Irish weren&#039;t &quot;white.&quot; News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Micha: <em>As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</em></p>
<p>Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of &#8220;nativist whining.&#8221; Also interesting to note that the Irish weren&#8217;t &#8220;white.&#8221; News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11196</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11196</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.&lt;/em&gt;

So native-born people don&#039;t have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors&#039; labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very &quot;libertarian&quot; concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.</em></p>
<p>So native-born people don&#8217;t have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors&#8217; labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very &#8220;libertarian&#8221; concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11211</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11211</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.&lt;/em&gt;

So native-born people don&#039;t have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors&#039; labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very &quot;libertarian&quot; concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.</em></p>
<p>So native-born people don&#8217;t have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors&#8217; labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very &#8220;libertarian&#8221; concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11195</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11195</guid>
		<description>I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the &quot;freedom&quot; of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my &quot;freedom&quot; to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called &quot;libertarians&quot; using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn&#039;t anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the &quot;Virtue of Selfishness&quot;? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your &quot;altrusim&quot; is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake &quot;libertarians.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the &#8220;freedom&#8221; of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my &#8220;freedom&#8221; to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called &#8220;libertarians&#8221; using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn&#8217;t anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the &#8220;Virtue of Selfishness&#8221;? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your &#8220;altrusim&#8221; is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake &#8220;libertarians.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MaryJ</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11210</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11210</guid>
		<description>I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the &quot;freedom&quot; of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my &quot;freedom&quot; to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called &quot;libertarians&quot; using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn&#039;t anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the &quot;Virtue of Selfishness&quot;? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your &quot;altrusim&quot; is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake &quot;libertarians.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the &#8220;freedom&#8221; of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my &#8220;freedom&#8221; to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called &#8220;libertarians&#8221; using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn&#8217;t anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the &#8220;Virtue of Selfishness&#8221;? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your &#8220;altrusim&#8221; is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake &#8220;libertarians.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11194</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11194</guid>
		<description>As I recall from Scorsese&#039;s excellent &lt;i&gt;Gangs of New York&lt;/i&gt;, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln&#039;s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New York Draft Riots&lt;/a&gt;. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in &lt;i&gt;response&lt;/i&gt; to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I recall from Scorsese&#8217;s excellent <i>Gangs of New York</i>, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln&#8217;s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots" rel="nofollow">New York Draft Riots</a>. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in <i>response</i> to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11199</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11199</guid>
		<description>As I recall from Scorsese&#039;s excellent &lt;i&gt;Gangs of New York&lt;/i&gt;, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln&#039;s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New York Draft Riots&lt;/a&gt;. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in &lt;i&gt;response&lt;/i&gt; to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I recall from Scorsese&#8217;s excellent <i>Gangs of New York</i>, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln&#8217;s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots" rel="nofollow">New York Draft Riots</a>. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in <i>response</i> to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</p>
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		<title>By: bjk</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11193</link>
		<dc:creator>bjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11193</guid>
		<description>I just pointed out what seemed to me a causal relationship between the draft and immigration policy. When the cost of citizenship is so low for so many, there is less resistance to handing out the benefits of citizenship for free, like amnesty. And one last point, for the second time: self-congratulation is not a basis for social policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just pointed out what seemed to me a causal relationship between the draft and immigration policy. When the cost of citizenship is so low for so many, there is less resistance to handing out the benefits of citizenship for free, like amnesty. And one last point, for the second time: self-congratulation is not a basis for social policy.</p>
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		<title>By: bjk</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11200</link>
		<dc:creator>bjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11200</guid>
		<description>I just pointed out what seemed to me a causal relationship between the draft and immigration policy. When the cost of citizenship is so low for so many, there is less resistance to handing out the benefits of citizenship for free, like amnesty. And one last point, for the second time: self-congratulation is not a basis for social policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just pointed out what seemed to me a causal relationship between the draft and immigration policy. When the cost of citizenship is so low for so many, there is less resistance to handing out the benefits of citizenship for free, like amnesty. And one last point, for the second time: self-congratulation is not a basis for social policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11192</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11192</guid>
		<description>Please, you of all people don&#039;t get to claim you care about the poor African farmer. You couldn&#039;t give two shits about poor, dark skinned people, as you&#039;ve already so ably demonstrated.

When you talk about our &quot;volunteer&quot; army, you make it sound as if the soldiers are doing it for free. They aren&#039;t. Is it better or worse to subsidize our &quot;defense&quot; against such terrible threats to U.S. security as Saddam&#039;s Iraq through the current mercenary system of paying recruits to die, or the previous slavery system of drafting them against their will? Both are pretty shitty options, but I&#039;ll stick with Uncle Milton; you can have General Westmoreland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, you of all people don&#8217;t get to claim you care about the poor African farmer. You couldn&#8217;t give two shits about poor, dark skinned people, as you&#8217;ve already so ably demonstrated.</p>
<p>When you talk about our &#8220;volunteer&#8221; army, you make it sound as if the soldiers are doing it for free. They aren&#8217;t. Is it better or worse to subsidize our &#8220;defense&#8221; against such terrible threats to U.S. security as Saddam&#8217;s Iraq through the current mercenary system of paying recruits to die, or the previous slavery system of drafting them against their will? Both are pretty shitty options, but I&#8217;ll stick with Uncle Milton; you can have General Westmoreland.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Ghertner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11201</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Ghertner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11201</guid>
		<description>Please, you of all people don&#039;t get to claim you care about the poor African farmer. You couldn&#039;t give two shits about poor, dark skinned people, as you&#039;ve already so ably demonstrated.

When you talk about our &quot;volunteer&quot; army, you make it sound as if the soldiers are doing it for free. They aren&#039;t. Is it better or worse to subsidize our &quot;defense&quot; against such terrible threats to U.S. security as Saddam&#039;s Iraq through the current mercenary system of paying recruits to die, or the previous slavery system of drafting them against their will? Both are pretty shitty options, but I&#039;ll stick with Uncle Milton; you can have General Westmoreland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, you of all people don&#8217;t get to claim you care about the poor African farmer. You couldn&#8217;t give two shits about poor, dark skinned people, as you&#8217;ve already so ably demonstrated.</p>
<p>When you talk about our &#8220;volunteer&#8221; army, you make it sound as if the soldiers are doing it for free. They aren&#8217;t. Is it better or worse to subsidize our &#8220;defense&#8221; against such terrible threats to U.S. security as Saddam&#8217;s Iraq through the current mercenary system of paying recruits to die, or the previous slavery system of drafting them against their will? Both are pretty shitty options, but I&#8217;ll stick with Uncle Milton; you can have General Westmoreland.</p>
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		<title>By: bjk</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11191</link>
		<dc:creator>bjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11191</guid>
		<description>The sugar farmer and the migrant workers are of course, the same person, except there are alot more of the former. As to second point, I suspect immigration policy went off the rails about the same time the US instituted a volunteer army. We all, of course, live off the subsidy provided by those who serve our country at the risk of their lives. A nation is not a vast and unjust transfer-payment scheme, as some seem to imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sugar farmer and the migrant workers are of course, the same person, except there are alot more of the former. As to second point, I suspect immigration policy went off the rails about the same time the US instituted a volunteer army. We all, of course, live off the subsidy provided by those who serve our country at the risk of their lives. A nation is not a vast and unjust transfer-payment scheme, as some seem to imagine.</p>
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