Comments on: Guests in the Machine http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/ The Sweet Release of Reason Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:11:50 +0000 hourly 1 By: bjk http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11198 bjk Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:51:53 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11198 I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ. I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ.

]]> By: bjk http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11216 bjk Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:51:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11216 I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ. I agree completely with what some may consider the bilge of MaryJ.

]]> By: MaryJ http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11197 MaryJ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:19:55 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11197 Micha: <em>As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</em> Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of "nativist whining." Also interesting to note that the Irish weren't "white." News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure. Micha: As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.

Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of “nativist whining.” Also interesting to note that the Irish weren’t “white.” News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure.

]]> By: MaryJ http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11212 MaryJ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:19:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11212 Micha: <em>As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.</em> Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of "nativist whining." Also interesting to note that the Irish weren't "white." News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure. Micha: As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.

Gee, I thought drafting immigrants came from a desire for the North to win the Civil War by overwhelming the South with superior numbers, not because of “nativist whining.” Also interesting to note that the Irish weren’t “white.” News to my great-great grandfather, I am sure.

]]> By: MaryJ http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11196 MaryJ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:15:37 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11196 <em>Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.</em> So native-born people don't have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors' labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very "libertarian" concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors. Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.

So native-born people don’t have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors’ labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very “libertarian” concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors.

]]> By: MaryJ http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11211 MaryJ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:15:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11211 <em>Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.</em> So native-born people don't have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors' labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very "libertarian" concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors. Wil: And, yes, migration restrictions are a domestic subsidy, as Micha points out.

So native-born people don’t have the right to benefit from the societies our ancestors fought, bled and died to establish? We must let people whose ancestors never fought bled and died for our country to come here in uncontrolled numbers and compete with us for the fruits of our ancestors’ labors? Sounds pretty grim to me. What would be the point of doing anything to establish a decent society, if the fruits of our labors cannot be passed on to our posterity? My ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not risk their lives so that some Indonesian guy they had nothing in common with could have a better life; they did it for their children, grandchildren and so on down the line. This does not seem to be a very “libertarian” concept, the concept of denying people the right to pass onto their descendants the fruits of their labors.

]]> By: MaryJ http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11195 MaryJ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:03:54 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11195 I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the "freedom" of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my "freedom" to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called "libertarians" using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn't anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the "Virtue of Selfishness"? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your "altrusim" is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake "libertarians." I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the “freedom” of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my “freedom” to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called “libertarians” using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn’t anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the “Virtue of Selfishness”? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your “altrusim” is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake “libertarians.”

]]> By: MaryJ http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11210 MaryJ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:03:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11210 I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the "freedom" of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my "freedom" to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called "libertarians" using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn't anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the "Virtue of Selfishness"? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your "altrusim" is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake "libertarians." I prefer to remain living in the First World country for which my ancestors fought, bled and died to establish. Why does the “freedom” of open borders fanatics and poverty-stricken foreign nationals come before my “freedom” to bequeath to my children and grandchildren the same First World country that I grew up in? Why are so-called “libertarians” using appeals to altruism to promote open borders and immigration anarchy? Hasn’t anybody here ever read Ayn Rand and the “Virtue of Selfishness”? Altruism has no place in true libertarianism, if your “altrusim” is obtained at the expense of my desire to live in a country with a First World quality of life. No sale here, fake “libertarians.”

]]> By: Micha Ghertner http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11194 Micha Ghertner Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:15:09 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11194 As I recall from Scorsese's excellent <i>Gangs of New York</i>, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln's army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots" rel="nofollow">New York Draft Riots</a>. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in <i>response</i> to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory. As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.

]]> By: Micha Ghertner http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11199 Micha Ghertner Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:15:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/12/20/guests-in-the-machine/#comment-11199 As I recall from Scorsese's excellent <i>Gangs of New York</i>, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln's army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots" rel="nofollow">New York Draft Riots</a>. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in <i>response</i> to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory. As I recall from Scorsese’s excellent Gangs of New York, Irish immigrants directly off the boat were drafted into Lincoln’s army to fight the American Civil War, thereby leading to the infamous New York Draft Riots. So the exact opposite of your contention is true: military conscription (for poor immigrants, not wealthy white men, of course) first originated in response to nativist whinging about immigration, in direct contrast to your historically challenged theory.

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