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	<title>Comments on: Douthat&#039;s Populist Nationalism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10079</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10079</guid>
		<description>Ferris, Excellent! I think this is probably about as good as it gets. But I&#039;m not sure this is an argument against the liberal baseline so much as a charge to be realistically prudent when attempting to take it seriously. The fact that we care more about people we see on TV than people we don&#039;t obviously doesn&#039;t embody a GOOD reason, but it is a constraint. And it is of course possible culturally to widen the circle of concern, so we should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ferris, Excellent! I think this is probably about as good as it gets. But I&#8217;m not sure this is an argument against the liberal baseline so much as a charge to be realistically prudent when attempting to take it seriously. The fact that we care more about people we see on TV than people we don&#8217;t obviously doesn&#8217;t embody a GOOD reason, but it is a constraint. And it is of course possible culturally to widen the circle of concern, so we should.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10107</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10107</guid>
		<description>Ferris, Excellent! I think this is probably about as good as it gets. But I&#039;m not sure this is an argument against the liberal baseline so much as a charge to be realistically prudent when attempting to take it seriously. The fact that we care more about people we see on TV than people we don&#039;t obviously doesn&#039;t embody a GOOD reason, but it is a constraint. And it is of course possible culturally to widen the circle of concern, so we should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ferris, Excellent! I think this is probably about as good as it gets. But I&#8217;m not sure this is an argument against the liberal baseline so much as a charge to be realistically prudent when attempting to take it seriously. The fact that we care more about people we see on TV than people we don&#8217;t obviously doesn&#8217;t embody a GOOD reason, but it is a constraint. And it is of course possible culturally to widen the circle of concern, so we should.</p>
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		<title>By: Ferris Bueller</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10078</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferris Bueller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10078</guid>
		<description>Will Wilkinson asked: &quot;Arguments against the liberal baseline? Anyone? Anyone?&quot;

Edmund Burke might say that we simply are not built that way--we are not rootless cosmopolitans, and attempts to build societies on rootless-cosmopolitan principles will go badly wrong in horrible ways. We care first about ourselves, second about our descendants, third about our families, fourth about our neighbors, fifth about people we see on TV who we can easily identify with, sixth about people who speak our own language, seventh about people from countries we have visited or see often on TV in ways that make us identify with them, and eighth about everybody else.

Thus even if we want (for some reason) to achieve rootless cosmopolitan ends, the means we must use are to encourage the growth and development of societies that reflect this hierarchy of moral concern, because societies that don&#039;t will not long survive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will Wilkinson asked: &#8220;Arguments against the liberal baseline? Anyone? Anyone?&#8221;</p>
<p>Edmund Burke might say that we simply are not built that way&#8211;we are not rootless cosmopolitans, and attempts to build societies on rootless-cosmopolitan principles will go badly wrong in horrible ways. We care first about ourselves, second about our descendants, third about our families, fourth about our neighbors, fifth about people we see on TV who we can easily identify with, sixth about people who speak our own language, seventh about people from countries we have visited or see often on TV in ways that make us identify with them, and eighth about everybody else.</p>
<p>Thus even if we want (for some reason) to achieve rootless cosmopolitan ends, the means we must use are to encourage the growth and development of societies that reflect this hierarchy of moral concern, because societies that don&#8217;t will not long survive.</p>
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		<title>By: Ferris Bueller</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10102</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferris Bueller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10102</guid>
		<description>Will Wilkinson asked: &quot;Arguments against the liberal baseline? Anyone? Anyone?&quot;

Edmund Burke might say that we simply are not built that way--we are not rootless cosmopolitans, and attempts to build societies on rootless-cosmopolitan principles will go badly wrong in horrible ways. We care first about ourselves, second about our descendants, third about our families, fourth about our neighbors, fifth about people we see on TV who we can easily identify with, sixth about people who speak our own language, seventh about people from countries we have visited or see often on TV in ways that make us identify with them, and eighth about everybody else.

Thus even if we want (for some reason) to achieve rootless cosmopolitan ends, the means we must use are to encourage the growth and development of societies that reflect this hierarchy of moral concern, because societies that don&#039;t will not long survive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will Wilkinson asked: &#8220;Arguments against the liberal baseline? Anyone? Anyone?&#8221;</p>
<p>Edmund Burke might say that we simply are not built that way&#8211;we are not rootless cosmopolitans, and attempts to build societies on rootless-cosmopolitan principles will go badly wrong in horrible ways. We care first about ourselves, second about our descendants, third about our families, fourth about our neighbors, fifth about people we see on TV who we can easily identify with, sixth about people who speak our own language, seventh about people from countries we have visited or see often on TV in ways that make us identify with them, and eighth about everybody else.</p>
<p>Thus even if we want (for some reason) to achieve rootless cosmopolitan ends, the means we must use are to encourage the growth and development of societies that reflect this hierarchy of moral concern, because societies that don&#8217;t will not long survive.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIntosh</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10077</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIntosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10077</guid>
		<description>Also wasn&#039;t talking specifically about SSA, and neither was anyone else. The overall *worldwide* trend is toward convergence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also wasn&#8217;t talking specifically about SSA, and neither was anyone else. The overall *worldwide* trend is toward convergence.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIntosh</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10091</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIntosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10091</guid>
		<description>Also wasn&#039;t talking specifically about SSA, and neither was anyone else. The overall *worldwide* trend is toward convergence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also wasn&#8217;t talking specifically about SSA, and neither was anyone else. The overall *worldwide* trend is toward convergence.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIntosh</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10076</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIntosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10076</guid>
		<description>TGGP, apparently you&#039;re using &quot;converge&quot; in a stricter sense than me: I&#039;m talking about convergence of living standards, not necessarily something like per capita GDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TGGP, apparently you&#8217;re using &#8220;converge&#8221; in a stricter sense than me: I&#8217;m talking about convergence of living standards, not necessarily something like per capita GDP.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIntosh</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10090</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIntosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10090</guid>
		<description>TGGP, apparently you&#039;re using &quot;converge&quot; in a stricter sense than me: I&#039;m talking about convergence of living standards, not necessarily something like per capita GDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TGGP, apparently you&#8217;re using &#8220;converge&#8221; in a stricter sense than me: I&#8217;m talking about convergence of living standards, not necessarily something like per capita GDP.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10075</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10075</guid>
		<description>Matt McIntosh, do you really think that, say, sub-Saharan Africa is going to &quot;converge&quot; developmentally within our lifetimes (assuming the Singularity doesn&#039;t let us live forever)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt McIntosh, do you really think that, say, sub-Saharan Africa is going to &#8220;converge&#8221; developmentally within our lifetimes (assuming the Singularity doesn&#8217;t let us live forever)?</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10089</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10089</guid>
		<description>Matt McIntosh, do you really think that, say, sub-Saharan Africa is going to &quot;converge&quot; developmentally within our lifetimes (assuming the Singularity doesn&#039;t let us live forever)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt McIntosh, do you really think that, say, sub-Saharan Africa is going to &#8220;converge&#8221; developmentally within our lifetimes (assuming the Singularity doesn&#8217;t let us live forever)?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben A</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10074</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10074</guid>
		<description>Will writes:

&lt;i&gt;It’s a rather profound error to characterize voluntary trade between American employers and Mexicans workers as equivalent to ”humanitarian spending,”&lt;/i&gt;

True. But it is &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt; a profound error to characterize immigration as equivalent to voluntary trade. Setting up a call center in Saudi Arabia is voluntary trade. Hiring a guy in Oaxaca to mine World-of-Warcraft gold for you is voluntary trade. Bully for voluntary trade across borders, bully, indeed, for the &lt;i&gt;right&lt;/i&gt; to engage in voluntary trade across borders. The right to engage in voluntary trade across borders is simply not the same, however, as the right to become a resident or citizen of another country. There are all sorts of good reasons to want individuals to be able to choose their own country of citizenship and residence. I endorse this goal myself.

It is not, however, part of the ‘liberal baseline’ (if liberal here means the classical liberal tradition) to assume that anyone has a right to be the citizen or resident of the country he chooses. The classic liberal has reasonable arguments for denying this as a right, including: a) a state is a contract between its members, and they can exclude whomever they want, b) a free, liberal society has cultural preconditions that open immigration might damage. Now, as it happens, I support high levels of continued immigration into the US, but not because I think support is written into classical liberalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will writes:</p>
<p><i>It’s a rather profound error to characterize voluntary trade between American employers and Mexicans workers as equivalent to ”humanitarian spending,”</i></p>
<p>True. But it is <i>also</i> a profound error to characterize immigration as equivalent to voluntary trade. Setting up a call center in Saudi Arabia is voluntary trade. Hiring a guy in Oaxaca to mine World-of-Warcraft gold for you is voluntary trade. Bully for voluntary trade across borders, bully, indeed, for the <i>right</i> to engage in voluntary trade across borders. The right to engage in voluntary trade across borders is simply not the same, however, as the right to become a resident or citizen of another country. There are all sorts of good reasons to want individuals to be able to choose their own country of citizenship and residence. I endorse this goal myself.</p>
<p>It is not, however, part of the ‘liberal baseline’ (if liberal here means the classical liberal tradition) to assume that anyone has a right to be the citizen or resident of the country he chooses. The classic liberal has reasonable arguments for denying this as a right, including: a) a state is a contract between its members, and they can exclude whomever they want, b) a free, liberal society has cultural preconditions that open immigration might damage. Now, as it happens, I support high levels of continued immigration into the US, but not because I think support is written into classical liberalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben A</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10092</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10092</guid>
		<description>Will writes:

&lt;i&gt;It’s a rather profound error to characterize voluntary trade between American employers and Mexicans workers as equivalent to ”humanitarian spending,”&lt;/i&gt;

True. But it is &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt; a profound error to characterize immigration as equivalent to voluntary trade. Setting up a call center in Saudi Arabia is voluntary trade. Hiring a guy in Oaxaca to mine World-of-Warcraft gold for you is voluntary trade. Bully for voluntary trade across borders, bully, indeed, for the &lt;i&gt;right&lt;/i&gt; to engage in voluntary trade across borders. The right to engage in voluntary trade across borders is simply not the same, however, as the right to become a resident or citizen of another country. There are all sorts of good reasons to want individuals to be able to choose their own country of citizenship and residence. I endorse this goal myself.

It is not, however, part of the ‘liberal baseline’ (if liberal here means the classical liberal tradition) to assume that anyone has a right to be the citizen or resident of the country he chooses. The classic liberal has reasonable arguments for denying this as a right, including: a) a state is a contract between its members, and they can exclude whomever they want, b) a free, liberal society has cultural preconditions that open immigration might damage. Now, as it happens, I support high levels of continued immigration into the US, but not because I think support is written into classical liberalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will writes:</p>
<p><i>It’s a rather profound error to characterize voluntary trade between American employers and Mexicans workers as equivalent to ”humanitarian spending,”</i></p>
<p>True. But it is <i>also</i> a profound error to characterize immigration as equivalent to voluntary trade. Setting up a call center in Saudi Arabia is voluntary trade. Hiring a guy in Oaxaca to mine World-of-Warcraft gold for you is voluntary trade. Bully for voluntary trade across borders, bully, indeed, for the <i>right</i> to engage in voluntary trade across borders. The right to engage in voluntary trade across borders is simply not the same, however, as the right to become a resident or citizen of another country. There are all sorts of good reasons to want individuals to be able to choose their own country of citizenship and residence. I endorse this goal myself.</p>
<p>It is not, however, part of the ‘liberal baseline’ (if liberal here means the classical liberal tradition) to assume that anyone has a right to be the citizen or resident of the country he chooses. The classic liberal has reasonable arguments for denying this as a right, including: a) a state is a contract between its members, and they can exclude whomever they want, b) a free, liberal society has cultural preconditions that open immigration might damage. Now, as it happens, I support high levels of continued immigration into the US, but not because I think support is written into classical liberalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Tievsky</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10073</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Tievsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10073</guid>
		<description>This gets us back to WW&#039;s original post.  The point isn&#039;t that American policy must always equate aliens and citizens, in every context.  The point is that it&#039;s particularly pernicious to coerce citizens, and justify that coercion on the ground that aliens are worth less than citizens.

In other words, it is objectionable to force citizens to discriminate against aliens on the ground that aliens are worth less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This gets us back to WW&#8217;s original post.  The point isn&#8217;t that American policy must always equate aliens and citizens, in every context.  The point is that it&#8217;s particularly pernicious to coerce citizens, and justify that coercion on the ground that aliens are worth less than citizens.</p>
<p>In other words, it is objectionable to force citizens to discriminate against aliens on the ground that aliens are worth less.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Tievsky</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10101</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Tievsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10101</guid>
		<description>This gets us back to WW&#039;s original post.  The point isn&#039;t that American policy must always equate aliens and citizens, in every context.  The point is that it&#039;s particularly pernicious to coerce citizens, and justify that coercion on the ground that aliens are worth less than citizens.

In other words, it is objectionable to force citizens to discriminate against aliens on the ground that aliens are worth less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This gets us back to WW&#8217;s original post.  The point isn&#8217;t that American policy must always equate aliens and citizens, in every context.  The point is that it&#8217;s particularly pernicious to coerce citizens, and justify that coercion on the ground that aliens are worth less than citizens.</p>
<p>In other words, it is objectionable to force citizens to discriminate against aliens on the ground that aliens are worth less.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Tievsky</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10072</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Tievsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/06/18/douthats-populist-nationalism/#comment-10072</guid>
		<description>bjkad: &quot;If you want a simpler argument: economic nationalism is just individual selfishness writ large. It is perfectly consistent.&quot;

No, because the nation isn&#039;t unanimous in its choice of immigration policy.  E.g., a primary reason there&#039;s conflict over this issue is that some Americans want to employ certain immigrants and other Americans don&#039;t want to allow that, each group acting in its own self-interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bjkad: &#8220;If you want a simpler argument: economic nationalism is just individual selfishness writ large. It is perfectly consistent.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, because the nation isn&#8217;t unanimous in its choice of immigration policy.  E.g., a primary reason there&#8217;s conflict over this issue is that some Americans want to employ certain immigrants and other Americans don&#8217;t want to allow that, each group acting in its own self-interest.</p>
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