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	<title>Comments on: Bounded vs. Unbounded</title>
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	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: DED</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9530</link>
		<dc:creator>DED</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9530</guid>
		<description>Will --

I&#039;m not sure I fully understand your concern, but I think  that one of your assumptions -- that people have a kind of &quot;aversion&quot; to reporting their happiness accurately/truthfully at the extremes of the scale -- does most of the work for your argument.  If we don&#039;t trust the self-reports from the surveys (and there are many reasons to be skeptical, not only at the extremes of the happiness scale, but at any point therein) then the survey measure is largely useless anyways.  This is why such surveys are most helpful and robust when combined with other methods to triangulate on SWB (maybe more in depth interviews, brainscans, congruence with other behaviors, etc.).

However, if we are willing to take people at their word when they say, for example, that they are a &quot;1&quot; on a SWB scale of 1-4, or an &quot;8&quot; on a 1-10 scale, then your argument seems to lose force until the distribution becomes so skewed that everyone is (truthfully, by my assumption) at or around the maximum happiness levels.  At that point, the inquiry either becomes uninformative or we are all just very happy!

To alleviate the problem, we could construct a scale with finer gradients -- like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2....9.8, 9.9, 10 -- to distinguish among the people even when we begin to approach the top (or bottom) portion of the scale.  I know that this compounds the problem of quantifying happiness in a survey (and complicates comparisons across years, with less exacting scales), but it demonstrates, I think, that your concern is fundamentally about truth in reporting rather than anything else.  After all, it would be even less informative if we constructed an unbounded happiness metric to match the unbounded income dimension -- &quot;Survey question 1:  Report a number in between 0 and infinity that reflects your happiness...&quot;

Does this make sense?

DED</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will &#8211;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I fully understand your concern, but I think  that one of your assumptions &#8212; that people have a kind of &#8220;aversion&#8221; to reporting their happiness accurately/truthfully at the extremes of the scale &#8212; does most of the work for your argument.  If we don&#8217;t trust the self-reports from the surveys (and there are many reasons to be skeptical, not only at the extremes of the happiness scale, but at any point therein) then the survey measure is largely useless anyways.  This is why such surveys are most helpful and robust when combined with other methods to triangulate on SWB (maybe more in depth interviews, brainscans, congruence with other behaviors, etc.).</p>
<p>However, if we are willing to take people at their word when they say, for example, that they are a &#8220;1&#8243; on a SWB scale of 1-4, or an &#8220;8&#8243; on a 1-10 scale, then your argument seems to lose force until the distribution becomes so skewed that everyone is (truthfully, by my assumption) at or around the maximum happiness levels.  At that point, the inquiry either becomes uninformative or we are all just very happy!</p>
<p>To alleviate the problem, we could construct a scale with finer gradients &#8212; like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2&#8230;.9.8, 9.9, 10 &#8212; to distinguish among the people even when we begin to approach the top (or bottom) portion of the scale.  I know that this compounds the problem of quantifying happiness in a survey (and complicates comparisons across years, with less exacting scales), but it demonstrates, I think, that your concern is fundamentally about truth in reporting rather than anything else.  After all, it would be even less informative if we constructed an unbounded happiness metric to match the unbounded income dimension &#8212; &#8220;Survey question 1:  Report a number in between 0 and infinity that reflects your happiness&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Does this make sense?</p>
<p>DED</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DED</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9536</link>
		<dc:creator>DED</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9536</guid>
		<description>Will --

I&#039;m not sure I fully understand your concern, but I think  that one of your assumptions -- that people have a kind of &quot;aversion&quot; to reporting their happiness accurately/truthfully at the extremes of the scale -- does most of the work for your argument.  If we don&#039;t trust the self-reports from the surveys (and there are many reasons to be skeptical, not only at the extremes of the happiness scale, but at any point therein) then the survey measure is largely useless anyways.  This is why such surveys are most helpful and robust when combined with other methods to triangulate on SWB (maybe more in depth interviews, brainscans, congruence with other behaviors, etc.).

However, if we are willing to take people at their word when they say, for example, that they are a &quot;1&quot; on a SWB scale of 1-4, or an &quot;8&quot; on a 1-10 scale, then your argument seems to lose force until the distribution becomes so skewed that everyone is (truthfully, by my assumption) at or around the maximum happiness levels.  At that point, the inquiry either becomes uninformative or we are all just very happy!

To alleviate the problem, we could construct a scale with finer gradients -- like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2....9.8, 9.9, 10 -- to distinguish among the people even when we begin to approach the top (or bottom) portion of the scale.  I know that this compounds the problem of quantifying happiness in a survey (and complicates comparisons across years, with less exacting scales), but it demonstrates, I think, that your concern is fundamentally about truth in reporting rather than anything else.  After all, it would be even less informative if we constructed an unbounded happiness metric to match the unbounded income dimension -- &quot;Survey question 1:  Report a number in between 0 and infinity that reflects your happiness...&quot;

Does this make sense?

DED</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will &#8211;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I fully understand your concern, but I think  that one of your assumptions &#8212; that people have a kind of &#8220;aversion&#8221; to reporting their happiness accurately/truthfully at the extremes of the scale &#8212; does most of the work for your argument.  If we don&#8217;t trust the self-reports from the surveys (and there are many reasons to be skeptical, not only at the extremes of the happiness scale, but at any point therein) then the survey measure is largely useless anyways.  This is why such surveys are most helpful and robust when combined with other methods to triangulate on SWB (maybe more in depth interviews, brainscans, congruence with other behaviors, etc.).</p>
<p>However, if we are willing to take people at their word when they say, for example, that they are a &#8220;1&#8243; on a SWB scale of 1-4, or an &#8220;8&#8243; on a 1-10 scale, then your argument seems to lose force until the distribution becomes so skewed that everyone is (truthfully, by my assumption) at or around the maximum happiness levels.  At that point, the inquiry either becomes uninformative or we are all just very happy!</p>
<p>To alleviate the problem, we could construct a scale with finer gradients &#8212; like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2&#8230;.9.8, 9.9, 10 &#8212; to distinguish among the people even when we begin to approach the top (or bottom) portion of the scale.  I know that this compounds the problem of quantifying happiness in a survey (and complicates comparisons across years, with less exacting scales), but it demonstrates, I think, that your concern is fundamentally about truth in reporting rather than anything else.  After all, it would be even less informative if we constructed an unbounded happiness metric to match the unbounded income dimension &#8212; &#8220;Survey question 1:  Report a number in between 0 and infinity that reflects your happiness&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Does this make sense?</p>
<p>DED</p>
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		<title>By: slocum</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9529</link>
		<dc:creator>slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9529</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think you&#039;re right -- it is begging the question to claim that happiness does not keep rising with income while using a scale that guarantees it cannot possibly keep rising with income.

What would happen if, instead, you asked people to rate their happiness on a scale of 0 to 100 billion where:

0 = the most miserable person in the world
100 billion = the happiest person in the world</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think you&#8217;re right &#8212; it is begging the question to claim that happiness does not keep rising with income while using a scale that guarantees it cannot possibly keep rising with income.</p>
<p>What would happen if, instead, you asked people to rate their happiness on a scale of 0 to 100 billion where:</p>
<p>0 = the most miserable person in the world<br />
100 billion = the happiest person in the world</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: slocum</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9531</link>
		<dc:creator>slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9531</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think you&#039;re right -- it is begging the question to claim that happiness does not keep rising with income while using a scale that guarantees it cannot possibly keep rising with income.

What would happen if, instead, you asked people to rate their happiness on a scale of 0 to 100 billion where:

0 = the most miserable person in the world
100 billion = the happiest person in the world</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think you&#8217;re right &#8212; it is begging the question to claim that happiness does not keep rising with income while using a scale that guarantees it cannot possibly keep rising with income.</p>
<p>What would happen if, instead, you asked people to rate their happiness on a scale of 0 to 100 billion where:</p>
<p>0 = the most miserable person in the world<br />
100 billion = the happiest person in the world</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9528</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9528</guid>
		<description>Sam, Yes. Layards&#039; team needs to think harder about whether the possible log relationship reflects a shift in reporting biases along the income scale. The issue may be that, up to a certain threshold, reporting improves as a function of income, since income up to that threshold, affects more immediately salient and available dimensions of affect. After the income threshold, income continues to be converted into improvements in the quality of various dimensions of affect, but levels and changes in these dimensions are less available to consciousness. It could also be simpler than that, and people simply have a ceiling aversion, so once they&#039;ve got enough money to say &quot;pretty happy,&quot; things flatten out, even as people feel better. I don&#039;t know how big these effects are, but I&#039;d put good money on their existence. I suspect the effect is large. However, we know in advance that Layard will clumsily interpret the curve in verbal self-reports as a function of incomme in a simplistic methodological manner, unless of course it is ideologically convenient to be careful. Maybe he can try to say something fancy about the Weber-Fechner law, but that probably describes attentional adaptation as well actual hedonic adaptation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, Yes. Layards&#8217; team needs to think harder about whether the possible log relationship reflects a shift in reporting biases along the income scale. The issue may be that, up to a certain threshold, reporting improves as a function of income, since income up to that threshold, affects more immediately salient and available dimensions of affect. After the income threshold, income continues to be converted into improvements in the quality of various dimensions of affect, but levels and changes in these dimensions are less available to consciousness. It could also be simpler than that, and people simply have a ceiling aversion, so once they&#8217;ve got enough money to say &#8220;pretty happy,&#8221; things flatten out, even as people feel better. I don&#8217;t know how big these effects are, but I&#8217;d put good money on their existence. I suspect the effect is large. However, we know in advance that Layard will clumsily interpret the curve in verbal self-reports as a function of incomme in a simplistic methodological manner, unless of course it is ideologically convenient to be careful. Maybe he can try to say something fancy about the Weber-Fechner law, but that probably describes attentional adaptation as well actual hedonic adaptation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9535</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9535</guid>
		<description>Sam, Yes. Layards&#039; team needs to think harder about whether the possible log relationship reflects a shift in reporting biases along the income scale. The issue may be that, up to a certain threshold, reporting improves as a function of income, since income up to that threshold, affects more immediately salient and available dimensions of affect. After the income threshold, income continues to be converted into improvements in the quality of various dimensions of affect, but levels and changes in these dimensions are less available to consciousness. It could also be simpler than that, and people simply have a ceiling aversion, so once they&#039;ve got enough money to say &quot;pretty happy,&quot; things flatten out, even as people feel better. I don&#039;t know how big these effects are, but I&#039;d put good money on their existence. I suspect the effect is large. However, we know in advance that Layard will clumsily interpret the curve in verbal self-reports as a function of incomme in a simplistic methodological manner, unless of course it is ideologically convenient to be careful. Maybe he can try to say something fancy about the Weber-Fechner law, but that probably describes attentional adaptation as well actual hedonic adaptation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, Yes. Layards&#8217; team needs to think harder about whether the possible log relationship reflects a shift in reporting biases along the income scale. The issue may be that, up to a certain threshold, reporting improves as a function of income, since income up to that threshold, affects more immediately salient and available dimensions of affect. After the income threshold, income continues to be converted into improvements in the quality of various dimensions of affect, but levels and changes in these dimensions are less available to consciousness. It could also be simpler than that, and people simply have a ceiling aversion, so once they&#8217;ve got enough money to say &#8220;pretty happy,&#8221; things flatten out, even as people feel better. I don&#8217;t know how big these effects are, but I&#8217;d put good money on their existence. I suspect the effect is large. However, we know in advance that Layard will clumsily interpret the curve in verbal self-reports as a function of incomme in a simplistic methodological manner, unless of course it is ideologically convenient to be careful. Maybe he can try to say something fancy about the Weber-Fechner law, but that probably describes attentional adaptation as well actual hedonic adaptation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9527</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9527</guid>
		<description>I guess it depends on the argument you wish to make. If there were no significant variance in the happiness data at all, at any level of income, then I think that would spell a large problem indeed.

But if you look at a cross-section, either intra- or inter-nationally, there&#039;s plenty of variation (albeit also some negative skew, at least on a 1-10 scale). And comparing this to income shows that people at the bottom, in both cases, are clearly less satisfied than those at the top, and by some margin.

But because the relationship isn&#039;t usually found to be linear (I know Layard&#039;s team, for instance, are currently testing the idea that it is logarithhmic), many authors make the comparison as a means of asking two questions: at what point do diminishing returns start to bite? And then: why THAT point and not at some higher (or lower) income level?

As long as these are the questions being posed, the boundedness or otherwise of the happiness scale doesn&#039;t seem to be a huge problem. Even making the strong assumption that the functional shape of the relationship is wholly the artefact of a methodological ceiling effect (and that happiness is, in fact, unbounded), that doesn&#039;t explain where along the x-axis the change occurs - and in policy terms, at least, that&#039;s the interesting bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it depends on the argument you wish to make. If there were no significant variance in the happiness data at all, at any level of income, then I think that would spell a large problem indeed.</p>
<p>But if you look at a cross-section, either intra- or inter-nationally, there&#8217;s plenty of variation (albeit also some negative skew, at least on a 1-10 scale). And comparing this to income shows that people at the bottom, in both cases, are clearly less satisfied than those at the top, and by some margin.</p>
<p>But because the relationship isn&#8217;t usually found to be linear (I know Layard&#8217;s team, for instance, are currently testing the idea that it is logarithhmic), many authors make the comparison as a means of asking two questions: at what point do diminishing returns start to bite? And then: why THAT point and not at some higher (or lower) income level?</p>
<p>As long as these are the questions being posed, the boundedness or otherwise of the happiness scale doesn&#8217;t seem to be a huge problem. Even making the strong assumption that the functional shape of the relationship is wholly the artefact of a methodological ceiling effect (and that happiness is, in fact, unbounded), that doesn&#8217;t explain where along the x-axis the change occurs &#8211; and in policy terms, at least, that&#8217;s the interesting bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9534</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9534</guid>
		<description>I guess it depends on the argument you wish to make. If there were no significant variance in the happiness data at all, at any level of income, then I think that would spell a large problem indeed.

But if you look at a cross-section, either intra- or inter-nationally, there&#039;s plenty of variation (albeit also some negative skew, at least on a 1-10 scale). And comparing this to income shows that people at the bottom, in both cases, are clearly less satisfied than those at the top, and by some margin.

But because the relationship isn&#039;t usually found to be linear (I know Layard&#039;s team, for instance, are currently testing the idea that it is logarithhmic), many authors make the comparison as a means of asking two questions: at what point do diminishing returns start to bite? And then: why THAT point and not at some higher (or lower) income level?

As long as these are the questions being posed, the boundedness or otherwise of the happiness scale doesn&#039;t seem to be a huge problem. Even making the strong assumption that the functional shape of the relationship is wholly the artefact of a methodological ceiling effect (and that happiness is, in fact, unbounded), that doesn&#039;t explain where along the x-axis the change occurs - and in policy terms, at least, that&#039;s the interesting bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it depends on the argument you wish to make. If there were no significant variance in the happiness data at all, at any level of income, then I think that would spell a large problem indeed.</p>
<p>But if you look at a cross-section, either intra- or inter-nationally, there&#8217;s plenty of variation (albeit also some negative skew, at least on a 1-10 scale). And comparing this to income shows that people at the bottom, in both cases, are clearly less satisfied than those at the top, and by some margin.</p>
<p>But because the relationship isn&#8217;t usually found to be linear (I know Layard&#8217;s team, for instance, are currently testing the idea that it is logarithhmic), many authors make the comparison as a means of asking two questions: at what point do diminishing returns start to bite? And then: why THAT point and not at some higher (or lower) income level?</p>
<p>As long as these are the questions being posed, the boundedness or otherwise of the happiness scale doesn&#8217;t seem to be a huge problem. Even making the strong assumption that the functional shape of the relationship is wholly the artefact of a methodological ceiling effect (and that happiness is, in fact, unbounded), that doesn&#8217;t explain where along the x-axis the change occurs &#8211; and in policy terms, at least, that&#8217;s the interesting bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9526</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9526</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read that happiness increases with income only up to a certain point (say, around $200 k per year). After that, the thinking goes that you&#039;ve generally got enough of what actually makes you happy that any more won&#039;t make you happier. For instance, you probably have a good deal of control over your employment, have a fair bit of job security and peace of mind for when you retire, enough vacation time to be relaxed (any more would probably just make you feel bored).

But what, I think, will prevent everyone from ever reaching that happiness ceiling is that many of those things that seem to contribute to our happiness are what you could call scarce goods: e.g. not everyone will be able to be their own boss. Also, if the happiness that seems to be correlated to increased income is related to the possession and display of luxury/status goods (fancy cars, etc.) then that prestige would disappear if everyone had them: the happiness-benefit that they confer (if any) is reliant upon the fact that many other people will not possess them.

Just some thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read that happiness increases with income only up to a certain point (say, around $200 k per year). After that, the thinking goes that you&#8217;ve generally got enough of what actually makes you happy that any more won&#8217;t make you happier. For instance, you probably have a good deal of control over your employment, have a fair bit of job security and peace of mind for when you retire, enough vacation time to be relaxed (any more would probably just make you feel bored).</p>
<p>But what, I think, will prevent everyone from ever reaching that happiness ceiling is that many of those things that seem to contribute to our happiness are what you could call scarce goods: e.g. not everyone will be able to be their own boss. Also, if the happiness that seems to be correlated to increased income is related to the possession and display of luxury/status goods (fancy cars, etc.) then that prestige would disappear if everyone had them: the happiness-benefit that they confer (if any) is reliant upon the fact that many other people will not possess them.</p>
<p>Just some thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9533</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2007/02/02/bounded-vs-unbounded/#comment-9533</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read that happiness increases with income only up to a certain point (say, around $200 k per year). After that, the thinking goes that you&#039;ve generally got enough of what actually makes you happy that any more won&#039;t make you happier. For instance, you probably have a good deal of control over your employment, have a fair bit of job security and peace of mind for when you retire, enough vacation time to be relaxed (any more would probably just make you feel bored).

But what, I think, will prevent everyone from ever reaching that happiness ceiling is that many of those things that seem to contribute to our happiness are what you could call scarce goods: e.g. not everyone will be able to be their own boss. Also, if the happiness that seems to be correlated to increased income is related to the possession and display of luxury/status goods (fancy cars, etc.) then that prestige would disappear if everyone had them: the happiness-benefit that they confer (if any) is reliant upon the fact that many other people will not possess them.

Just some thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read that happiness increases with income only up to a certain point (say, around $200 k per year). After that, the thinking goes that you&#8217;ve generally got enough of what actually makes you happy that any more won&#8217;t make you happier. For instance, you probably have a good deal of control over your employment, have a fair bit of job security and peace of mind for when you retire, enough vacation time to be relaxed (any more would probably just make you feel bored).</p>
<p>But what, I think, will prevent everyone from ever reaching that happiness ceiling is that many of those things that seem to contribute to our happiness are what you could call scarce goods: e.g. not everyone will be able to be their own boss. Also, if the happiness that seems to be correlated to increased income is related to the possession and display of luxury/status goods (fancy cars, etc.) then that prestige would disappear if everyone had them: the happiness-benefit that they confer (if any) is reliant upon the fact that many other people will not possess them.</p>
<p>Just some thoughts.</p>
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