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	<title>Comments on: Rawls on Interdependent Preferences</title>
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	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7374</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7374</guid>
		<description>Blar, Your point doesn&#039;t make any sense to me. From the perspective of justice, Chet&#039;s motivation in buying a boat means nothing. If the boat, or the status, is a value to him, then it is a value. And, of course, Chet&#039;s buying the boat can be quite valuable overall, regardless of his motivation -- to the people who made the boat, and made the bits that made the boat, and shipped that bits that made the boat, etc. The broken windows analogy is bad because a broken window is a loss of wealth. A yacht is a form of wealth. (Blowing up your yacht just show that you can would be more like it.) Becker&#039;s argument that absent status races people would take too few social-welfare enhancing entrepreneurial gambles is precisely the kind of argument that would lead parties behind the veil to endorse status races.

But, more generally, action in general, and consumption in particular, is permissible as long as it does not constitute a harm. Chet&#039;s buying a boat may not actually make him better off, but justice doesn&#039;t demand maximal prudence. It simply prohibits injustice. My Rawlsian point was that your sense of having your relative position harmed by Chet&#039;s yacht does not amount to real injustice on Chets part, so does not demand rectification or correction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blar, Your point doesn&#8217;t make any sense to me. From the perspective of justice, Chet&#8217;s motivation in buying a boat means nothing. If the boat, or the status, is a value to him, then it is a value. And, of course, Chet&#8217;s buying the boat can be quite valuable overall, regardless of his motivation &#8212; to the people who made the boat, and made the bits that made the boat, and shipped that bits that made the boat, etc. The broken windows analogy is bad because a broken window is a loss of wealth. A yacht is a form of wealth. (Blowing up your yacht just show that you can would be more like it.) Becker&#8217;s argument that absent status races people would take too few social-welfare enhancing entrepreneurial gambles is precisely the kind of argument that would lead parties behind the veil to endorse status races.</p>
<p>But, more generally, action in general, and consumption in particular, is permissible as long as it does not constitute a harm. Chet&#8217;s buying a boat may not actually make him better off, but justice doesn&#8217;t demand maximal prudence. It simply prohibits injustice. My Rawlsian point was that your sense of having your relative position harmed by Chet&#8217;s yacht does not amount to real injustice on Chets part, so does not demand rectification or correction.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7384</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7384</guid>
		<description>Blar, Your point doesn&#039;t make any sense to me. From the perspective of justice, Chet&#039;s motivation in buying a boat means nothing. If the boat, or the status, is a value to him, then it is a value. And, of course, Chet&#039;s buying the boat can be quite valuable overall, regardless of his motivation -- to the people who made the boat, and made the bits that made the boat, and shipped that bits that made the boat, etc. The broken windows analogy is bad because a broken window is a loss of wealth. A yacht is a form of wealth. (Blowing up your yacht just show that you can would be more like it.) Becker&#039;s argument that absent status races people would take too few social-welfare enhancing entrepreneurial gambles is precisely the kind of argument that would lead parties behind the veil to endorse status races.

But, more generally, action in general, and consumption in particular, is permissible as long as it does not constitute a harm. Chet&#039;s buying a boat may not actually make him better off, but justice doesn&#039;t demand maximal prudence. It simply prohibits injustice. My Rawlsian point was that your sense of having your relative position harmed by Chet&#039;s yacht does not amount to real injustice on Chets part, so does not demand rectification or correction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blar, Your point doesn&#8217;t make any sense to me. From the perspective of justice, Chet&#8217;s motivation in buying a boat means nothing. If the boat, or the status, is a value to him, then it is a value. And, of course, Chet&#8217;s buying the boat can be quite valuable overall, regardless of his motivation &#8212; to the people who made the boat, and made the bits that made the boat, and shipped that bits that made the boat, etc. The broken windows analogy is bad because a broken window is a loss of wealth. A yacht is a form of wealth. (Blowing up your yacht just show that you can would be more like it.) Becker&#8217;s argument that absent status races people would take too few social-welfare enhancing entrepreneurial gambles is precisely the kind of argument that would lead parties behind the veil to endorse status races.</p>
<p>But, more generally, action in general, and consumption in particular, is permissible as long as it does not constitute a harm. Chet&#8217;s buying a boat may not actually make him better off, but justice doesn&#8217;t demand maximal prudence. It simply prohibits injustice. My Rawlsian point was that your sense of having your relative position harmed by Chet&#8217;s yacht does not amount to real injustice on Chets part, so does not demand rectification or correction.</p>
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		<title>By: Blar</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7373</link>
		<dc:creator>Blar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7373</guid>
		<description>Jadagul, if people are spending their money on something that is of no value, then that&#039;s a problem, and an inefficiency in the economy.  To say otherwise - that it helps the economy to have people like Chet buy worthless status-enhancers - is to commit the broken window fallacy.  At least under the Rawls view, producing a status-enhancer is like breaking and fixing a window, in that it costs resources but adds no value.  If clever policies made it so that society didn&#039;t need to produce so many worthless yachts, then that would be an improvement, just like getting society to stop needing to fix so many windows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jadagul, if people are spending their money on something that is of no value, then that&#8217;s a problem, and an inefficiency in the economy.  To say otherwise &#8211; that it helps the economy to have people like Chet buy worthless status-enhancers &#8211; is to commit the broken window fallacy.  At least under the Rawls view, producing a status-enhancer is like breaking and fixing a window, in that it costs resources but adds no value.  If clever policies made it so that society didn&#8217;t need to produce so many worthless yachts, then that would be an improvement, just like getting society to stop needing to fix so many windows.</p>
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		<title>By: Blar</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7383</link>
		<dc:creator>Blar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7383</guid>
		<description>Jadagul, if people are spending their money on something that is of no value, then that&#039;s a problem, and an inefficiency in the economy.  To say otherwise - that it helps the economy to have people like Chet buy worthless status-enhancers - is to commit the broken window fallacy.  At least under the Rawls view, producing a status-enhancer is like breaking and fixing a window, in that it costs resources but adds no value.  If clever policies made it so that society didn&#039;t need to produce so many worthless yachts, then that would be an improvement, just like getting society to stop needing to fix so many windows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jadagul, if people are spending their money on something that is of no value, then that&#8217;s a problem, and an inefficiency in the economy.  To say otherwise &#8211; that it helps the economy to have people like Chet buy worthless status-enhancers &#8211; is to commit the broken window fallacy.  At least under the Rawls view, producing a status-enhancer is like breaking and fixing a window, in that it costs resources but adds no value.  If clever policies made it so that society didn&#8217;t need to produce so many worthless yachts, then that would be an improvement, just like getting society to stop needing to fix so many windows.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadagul</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7372</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadagul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7372</guid>
		<description>Blar: Even if we decide that the status-seeking desire is of no value, that doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s of negative value.  The argument that racism should be &lt;i&gt;dis&lt;/i&gt;incentivized has to rest on the fact that racism is harmful to others; the fact that racism is an invalid preference just means that we shouldn&#039;t weigh bigots&#039; desire to discriminate against minorities&#039; desire not to be discriminated against.

In the status game, Will and you both argue that preferences for status should be discounted (or something similar.  Take that as a simplification for purposes of argument).  But if we discount Chet&#039;s desire to have a bigger yacht than his neighbor, we also have to discount his neighbor&#039;s desire to have a bigger yacht than Chet; thus for policy purposes, we would not want to encourage or discourage Chet from producing on those grounds alone.  Chet is attempting to benefit himself at another&#039;s expense, apparently, but the premise of the post is that we shouldn&#039;t register the harm to the other on our utilitometer.  So the only utility change we&#039;re left with is &quot;Chet works hard, produces stuff, raises standard of living,&quot; which seems to me a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blar: Even if we decide that the status-seeking desire is of no value, that doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s of negative value.  The argument that racism should be <i>dis</i>incentivized has to rest on the fact that racism is harmful to others; the fact that racism is an invalid preference just means that we shouldn&#8217;t weigh bigots&#8217; desire to discriminate against minorities&#8217; desire not to be discriminated against.</p>
<p>In the status game, Will and you both argue that preferences for status should be discounted (or something similar.  Take that as a simplification for purposes of argument).  But if we discount Chet&#8217;s desire to have a bigger yacht than his neighbor, we also have to discount his neighbor&#8217;s desire to have a bigger yacht than Chet; thus for policy purposes, we would not want to encourage or discourage Chet from producing on those grounds alone.  Chet is attempting to benefit himself at another&#8217;s expense, apparently, but the premise of the post is that we shouldn&#8217;t register the harm to the other on our utilitometer.  So the only utility change we&#8217;re left with is &#8220;Chet works hard, produces stuff, raises standard of living,&#8221; which seems to me a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadagul</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7382</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadagul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7382</guid>
		<description>Blar: Even if we decide that the status-seeking desire is of no value, that doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s of negative value.  The argument that racism should be &lt;i&gt;dis&lt;/i&gt;incentivized has to rest on the fact that racism is harmful to others; the fact that racism is an invalid preference just means that we shouldn&#039;t weigh bigots&#039; desire to discriminate against minorities&#039; desire not to be discriminated against.

In the status game, Will and you both argue that preferences for status should be discounted (or something similar.  Take that as a simplification for purposes of argument).  But if we discount Chet&#039;s desire to have a bigger yacht than his neighbor, we also have to discount his neighbor&#039;s desire to have a bigger yacht than Chet; thus for policy purposes, we would not want to encourage or discourage Chet from producing on those grounds alone.  Chet is attempting to benefit himself at another&#039;s expense, apparently, but the premise of the post is that we shouldn&#039;t register the harm to the other on our utilitometer.  So the only utility change we&#039;re left with is &quot;Chet works hard, produces stuff, raises standard of living,&quot; which seems to me a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blar: Even if we decide that the status-seeking desire is of no value, that doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s of negative value.  The argument that racism should be <i>dis</i>incentivized has to rest on the fact that racism is harmful to others; the fact that racism is an invalid preference just means that we shouldn&#8217;t weigh bigots&#8217; desire to discriminate against minorities&#8217; desire not to be discriminated against.</p>
<p>In the status game, Will and you both argue that preferences for status should be discounted (or something similar.  Take that as a simplification for purposes of argument).  But if we discount Chet&#8217;s desire to have a bigger yacht than his neighbor, we also have to discount his neighbor&#8217;s desire to have a bigger yacht than Chet; thus for policy purposes, we would not want to encourage or discourage Chet from producing on those grounds alone.  Chet is attempting to benefit himself at another&#8217;s expense, apparently, but the premise of the post is that we shouldn&#8217;t register the harm to the other on our utilitometer.  So the only utility change we&#8217;re left with is &#8220;Chet works hard, produces stuff, raises standard of living,&#8221; which seems to me a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Blar</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7371</link>
		<dc:creator>Blar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7371</guid>
		<description>Will, those are four important points, all worth discussing, but I don&#039;t want these comments to be a debate of every argument you&#039;ve made against Layard.  I&#039;d rather focus on this post, on Rawls and interdependent preferences.  The main point of my comment was that the Rawlsian approach of deciding that some preferences don&#039;t count does not weaken Layard&#039;s general argument.  If people are working to satisfy preferences that don&#039;t have any value, then that&#039;s just as much of a problem as people working to benefit themselves in a way that harms others.  In &lt;a href=&quot;http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/09/arms-races-happiness-and-other-goods/#comment-3241&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this comment&lt;/a&gt; to one of your earlier posts, I identified both of these problems with status-seeking (people striving for something that isn&#039;t really of value and people striving for something that benefits them at others&#039; expense), and now I can add that, depending on how we define value, we might transform one of these problems into the other, but that doesn&#039;t make the problem disappear.  Your comment did not respond to this argument.

I suppose that it&#039;s possible for the Rawlsian approach to add to your anti-Layard argument if you can come up with a principled way to have the benefits that people gain by getting ahead in the status game count, while the harms to others from falling behind in the status game do not count, but this seems hard to do.  It is more likely that ruling out certain preferences in our normative judgments would weaken the argument made in your first quick response (that status games create new status rather than merely redistributing existing status), since there&#039;s a good chance that a principled application of the Rawlsian approach would lead us to decide that at least some of these status-benefits have no value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, those are four important points, all worth discussing, but I don&#8217;t want these comments to be a debate of every argument you&#8217;ve made against Layard.  I&#8217;d rather focus on this post, on Rawls and interdependent preferences.  The main point of my comment was that the Rawlsian approach of deciding that some preferences don&#8217;t count does not weaken Layard&#8217;s general argument.  If people are working to satisfy preferences that don&#8217;t have any value, then that&#8217;s just as much of a problem as people working to benefit themselves in a way that harms others.  In <a href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/09/arms-races-happiness-and-other-goods/#comment-3241" rel="nofollow">this comment</a> to one of your earlier posts, I identified both of these problems with status-seeking (people striving for something that isn&#8217;t really of value and people striving for something that benefits them at others&#8217; expense), and now I can add that, depending on how we define value, we might transform one of these problems into the other, but that doesn&#8217;t make the problem disappear.  Your comment did not respond to this argument.</p>
<p>I suppose that it&#8217;s possible for the Rawlsian approach to add to your anti-Layard argument if you can come up with a principled way to have the benefits that people gain by getting ahead in the status game count, while the harms to others from falling behind in the status game do not count, but this seems hard to do.  It is more likely that ruling out certain preferences in our normative judgments would weaken the argument made in your first quick response (that status games create new status rather than merely redistributing existing status), since there&#8217;s a good chance that a principled application of the Rawlsian approach would lead us to decide that at least some of these status-benefits have no value.</p>
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		<title>By: Blar</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7381</link>
		<dc:creator>Blar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7381</guid>
		<description>Will, those are four important points, all worth discussing, but I don&#039;t want these comments to be a debate of every argument you&#039;ve made against Layard.  I&#039;d rather focus on this post, on Rawls and interdependent preferences.  The main point of my comment was that the Rawlsian approach of deciding that some preferences don&#039;t count does not weaken Layard&#039;s general argument.  If people are working to satisfy preferences that don&#039;t have any value, then that&#039;s just as much of a problem as people working to benefit themselves in a way that harms others.  In &lt;a href=&quot;http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/09/arms-races-happiness-and-other-goods/#comment-3241&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this comment&lt;/a&gt; to one of your earlier posts, I identified both of these problems with status-seeking (people striving for something that isn&#039;t really of value and people striving for something that benefits them at others&#039; expense), and now I can add that, depending on how we define value, we might transform one of these problems into the other, but that doesn&#039;t make the problem disappear.  Your comment did not respond to this argument.

I suppose that it&#039;s possible for the Rawlsian approach to add to your anti-Layard argument if you can come up with a principled way to have the benefits that people gain by getting ahead in the status game count, while the harms to others from falling behind in the status game do not count, but this seems hard to do.  It is more likely that ruling out certain preferences in our normative judgments would weaken the argument made in your first quick response (that status games create new status rather than merely redistributing existing status), since there&#039;s a good chance that a principled application of the Rawlsian approach would lead us to decide that at least some of these status-benefits have no value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, those are four important points, all worth discussing, but I don&#8217;t want these comments to be a debate of every argument you&#8217;ve made against Layard.  I&#8217;d rather focus on this post, on Rawls and interdependent preferences.  The main point of my comment was that the Rawlsian approach of deciding that some preferences don&#8217;t count does not weaken Layard&#8217;s general argument.  If people are working to satisfy preferences that don&#8217;t have any value, then that&#8217;s just as much of a problem as people working to benefit themselves in a way that harms others.  In <a href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/09/arms-races-happiness-and-other-goods/#comment-3241" rel="nofollow">this comment</a> to one of your earlier posts, I identified both of these problems with status-seeking (people striving for something that isn&#8217;t really of value and people striving for something that benefits them at others&#8217; expense), and now I can add that, depending on how we define value, we might transform one of these problems into the other, but that doesn&#8217;t make the problem disappear.  Your comment did not respond to this argument.</p>
<p>I suppose that it&#8217;s possible for the Rawlsian approach to add to your anti-Layard argument if you can come up with a principled way to have the benefits that people gain by getting ahead in the status game count, while the harms to others from falling behind in the status game do not count, but this seems hard to do.  It is more likely that ruling out certain preferences in our normative judgments would weaken the argument made in your first quick response (that status games create new status rather than merely redistributing existing status), since there&#8217;s a good chance that a principled application of the Rawlsian approach would lead us to decide that at least some of these status-benefits have no value.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7370</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7370</guid>
		<description>Well, then you ought to have your head on straight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, then you ought to have your head on straight!</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7380</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2006/01/18/rawls-on-interdependent-preferences/#comment-7380</guid>
		<description>Well, then you ought to have your head on straight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, then you ought to have your head on straight!</p>
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