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	<title>Comments on: Layard Bait and Switch</title>
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	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
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		<title>By: conchis</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6227</link>
		<dc:creator>conchis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6227</guid>
		<description>If you happen to care about this any more (I just stumbled across this post while trying to google something else), the point you&#039;re making is probably half-correct. While it&#039;s fair enough that you were confused by this, Layard&#039;s argument is actually pretty reasonable if you understand the math.

Mathematically, the crucial assumption for Layard&#039;s argument to hold is that other people&#039;s income increases the marginal utility of my consumption. Technically, you&#039;re correct to say that this is distinct from the &quot;pollution&quot; argument, because the latter requires only that others&#039; income decrease my utility - it doesn&#039;t necessarily have anything to say about the marginal utility of my own consumption. However, it turns out that in the most of the standard ways of parameterising the utility function, the &quot;pollution&quot; assumption does in fact imply that my marginal utility of consumption increases. Indeed, it&#039;s more the case that you have to make special assumptions about the form of the utility function to avoid this implication, than to generate it - which is why (even if it&#039;s not completely transparent) Layard isn&#039;t being utterly ridiculous here.

Also, FWIW in these standard formulations, income &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; the pollution, so I don&#039;t quite know why you&#039;re taking such issue with that. Again, it&#039;s possible to argue for alternative formulations, but the standard one is far from obviously implausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you happen to care about this any more (I just stumbled across this post while trying to google something else), the point you&#8217;re making is probably half-correct. While it&#8217;s fair enough that you were confused by this, Layard&#8217;s argument is actually pretty reasonable if you understand the math.</p>
<p>Mathematically, the crucial assumption for Layard&#8217;s argument to hold is that other people&#8217;s income increases the marginal utility of my consumption. Technically, you&#8217;re correct to say that this is distinct from the &#8220;pollution&#8221; argument, because the latter requires only that others&#8217; income decrease my utility &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t necessarily have anything to say about the marginal utility of my own consumption. However, it turns out that in the most of the standard ways of parameterising the utility function, the &#8220;pollution&#8221; assumption does in fact imply that my marginal utility of consumption increases. Indeed, it&#8217;s more the case that you have to make special assumptions about the form of the utility function to avoid this implication, than to generate it &#8211; which is why (even if it&#8217;s not completely transparent) Layard isn&#8217;t being utterly ridiculous here.</p>
<p>Also, FWIW in these standard formulations, income <i>is</i> the pollution, so I don&#8217;t quite know why you&#8217;re taking such issue with that. Again, it&#8217;s possible to argue for alternative formulations, but the standard one is far from obviously implausible.</p>
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		<title>By: conchis</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6242</link>
		<dc:creator>conchis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6242</guid>
		<description>If you happen to care about this any more (I just stumbled across this post while trying to google something else), the point you&#039;re making is probably half-correct. While it&#039;s fair enough that you were confused by this, Layard&#039;s argument is actually pretty reasonable if you understand the math.

Mathematically, the crucial assumption for Layard&#039;s argument to hold is that other people&#039;s income increases the marginal utility of my consumption. Technically, you&#039;re correct to say that this is distinct from the &quot;pollution&quot; argument, because the latter requires only that others&#039; income decrease my utility - it doesn&#039;t necessarily have anything to say about the marginal utility of my own consumption. However, it turns out that in the most of the standard ways of parameterising the utility function, the &quot;pollution&quot; assumption does in fact imply that my marginal utility of consumption increases. Indeed, it&#039;s more the case that you have to make special assumptions about the form of the utility function to avoid this implication, than to generate it - which is why (even if it&#039;s not completely transparent) Layard isn&#039;t being utterly ridiculous here.

Also, FWIW in these standard formulations, income &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; the pollution, so I don&#039;t quite know why you&#039;re taking such issue with that. Again, it&#039;s possible to argue for alternative formulations, but the standard one is far from obviously implausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you happen to care about this any more (I just stumbled across this post while trying to google something else), the point you&#8217;re making is probably half-correct. While it&#8217;s fair enough that you were confused by this, Layard&#8217;s argument is actually pretty reasonable if you understand the math.</p>
<p>Mathematically, the crucial assumption for Layard&#8217;s argument to hold is that other people&#8217;s income increases the marginal utility of my consumption. Technically, you&#8217;re correct to say that this is distinct from the &#8220;pollution&#8221; argument, because the latter requires only that others&#8217; income decrease my utility &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t necessarily have anything to say about the marginal utility of my own consumption. However, it turns out that in the most of the standard ways of parameterising the utility function, the &#8220;pollution&#8221; assumption does in fact imply that my marginal utility of consumption increases. Indeed, it&#8217;s more the case that you have to make special assumptions about the form of the utility function to avoid this implication, than to generate it &#8211; which is why (even if it&#8217;s not completely transparent) Layard isn&#8217;t being utterly ridiculous here.</p>
<p>Also, FWIW in these standard formulations, income <i>is</i> the pollution, so I don&#8217;t quite know why you&#8217;re taking such issue with that. Again, it&#8217;s possible to argue for alternative formulations, but the standard one is far from obviously implausible.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Korner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6241</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Korner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6241</guid>
		<description>Javier: If reducing wealth inequality is itself a goal, that certainly does not mean that any and all means of achieving it would be acceptable.  Your immigration example reminds us that statistics on inequality are just a means of estimating the things we really are interested in.  This is a point that I have often myself made in this blog&#039;s recent discussion of happiness and inequality.  I also gree with you that we must consider international inequality as well.

As you point out, I did not by any means provide an exhaustive list of &quot;possible reasons&quot; that the wealth-poor should &quot;get over it&quot; for Coasian reasons.  But notice that many of your conservatives&#039; concerns have to do with effects on the economy.

It would probably be foolish for policy makers to set out uninformed to save us from a purportedly immiserating rat race.  But social scientists could do relevant studies.  So far happiness studies tend to just ask people roughly &quot;How happy are you?&quot;  We could ask more nuanced questions.  Also, the study Will cites just studies beliefs about income mobility.  We could study a sample of people who actually have achieved inter-quintile mobility (or suffered downward movement).  Was downward movement as bad as feared?  Did income-position gains correlate with expected happiness gains?  One of the first happiness studies, by Easterlin, found (to the contrary) that individuals predicted accurately that they would get wealthier but inaccurately that they would get more happy throughout their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Javier: If reducing wealth inequality is itself a goal, that certainly does not mean that any and all means of achieving it would be acceptable.  Your immigration example reminds us that statistics on inequality are just a means of estimating the things we really are interested in.  This is a point that I have often myself made in this blog&#8217;s recent discussion of happiness and inequality.  I also gree with you that we must consider international inequality as well.</p>
<p>As you point out, I did not by any means provide an exhaustive list of &#8220;possible reasons&#8221; that the wealth-poor should &#8220;get over it&#8221; for Coasian reasons.  But notice that many of your conservatives&#8217; concerns have to do with effects on the economy.</p>
<p>It would probably be foolish for policy makers to set out uninformed to save us from a purportedly immiserating rat race.  But social scientists could do relevant studies.  So far happiness studies tend to just ask people roughly &#8220;How happy are you?&#8221;  We could ask more nuanced questions.  Also, the study Will cites just studies beliefs about income mobility.  We could study a sample of people who actually have achieved inter-quintile mobility (or suffered downward movement).  Was downward movement as bad as feared?  Did income-position gains correlate with expected happiness gains?  One of the first happiness studies, by Easterlin, found (to the contrary) that individuals predicted accurately that they would get wealthier but inaccurately that they would get more happy throughout their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Javier</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6240</link>
		<dc:creator>Javier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6240</guid>
		<description>We may even really like the income mobility game itself (consider my (4) from the last post) and yet it turn out to be immiserating us. Reported happiness is important, but not the end-all-be-all.

How could policy makers know that the rate race is actually immiserating us if social science is incapable of detecting the immiseration? Or do you define immiseration in terms distinct from subjective well-being?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We may even really like the income mobility game itself (consider my (4) from the last post) and yet it turn out to be immiserating us. Reported happiness is important, but not the end-all-be-all.</p>
<p>How could policy makers know that the rate race is actually immiserating us if social science is incapable of detecting the immiseration? Or do you define immiseration in terms distinct from subjective well-being?</p>
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		<title>By: Javier</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6239</link>
		<dc:creator>Javier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6239</guid>
		<description>Wealth inequalities are endemic in any highly productive economy. We could find no way to equalize wealth without ruining the economy, thus costing the low/middle income people so much consumption-possibility that it&#039;s better for them just to deal with their wealth-inferiority complexes.

There&#039;s another possible reason against state efforts to reduce economic equality. It could be that the policies that the state would embark upon in order to reduce inequality are morally unacceptable on other grounds, aside from economic considerations.

For instance, one way to reduce inequality in American society is to crack down on immigration, as immigration is a sizable source of domestic economic inequality. But to do so seems counterproductive because the United States might successfully reduce domestic inequality, but global inequality would increase.

Similarly, conservatives frequently argue that welfare programs that redistribute income encourage dependency, crowd out civil society and social capital, or promote some other bad outcome. Thus, we might reject state efforts to reduce inequality because of harmful effects that specific redistributive policies generate and these effects might be harmful for the economy, as you suggest in (1), or harmful for other reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wealth inequalities are endemic in any highly productive economy. We could find no way to equalize wealth without ruining the economy, thus costing the low/middle income people so much consumption-possibility that it&#8217;s better for them just to deal with their wealth-inferiority complexes.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another possible reason against state efforts to reduce economic equality. It could be that the policies that the state would embark upon in order to reduce inequality are morally unacceptable on other grounds, aside from economic considerations.</p>
<p>For instance, one way to reduce inequality in American society is to crack down on immigration, as immigration is a sizable source of domestic economic inequality. But to do so seems counterproductive because the United States might successfully reduce domestic inequality, but global inequality would increase.</p>
<p>Similarly, conservatives frequently argue that welfare programs that redistribute income encourage dependency, crowd out civil society and social capital, or promote some other bad outcome. Thus, we might reject state efforts to reduce inequality because of harmful effects that specific redistributive policies generate and these effects might be harmful for the economy, as you suggest in (1), or harmful for other reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Korner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6238</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Korner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6238</guid>
		<description>And finally, those authors are just interested in the effects of beliefs about income mobility (not whether it is a fact).  Even if it is a fact (which in some sense it seems to be) that doesn&#039;t mean income mobility is making us happier.  We may even really like the income mobility game itself (consider my (4) from the last post) and yet it turn out to be immiserating us.  Reported happiness is important, but not the end-all-be-all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And finally, those authors are just interested in the effects of beliefs about income mobility (not whether it is a fact).  Even if it is a fact (which in some sense it seems to be) that doesn&#8217;t mean income mobility is making us happier.  We may even really like the income mobility game itself (consider my (4) from the last post) and yet it turn out to be immiserating us.  Reported happiness is important, but not the end-all-be-all.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Korner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6237</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Korner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6237</guid>
		<description>And of couse, the study you cite could be taken to imply that we should do the American rich a favor be levelling incomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And of couse, the study you cite could be taken to imply that we should do the American rich a favor be levelling incomes.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Korner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6236</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Korner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6236</guid>
		<description>Right.  That study provides an explication of the benefit to the wealthy that I discuss in (2) in my last post.  To me at least however, that study&#039;s conclusion (even if correct) seems a pretty poor argument for asking the relatively poor to just get over it, as per your Coasian hypothesis.  There&#039;s a big difference between their jealously sensing that we value them less (placing such emphasis on wealth as we do culturally) and their envying the income of others.

If I were ranking those possible reasons, I would say that (1) and (3) are by far the most plausible and that its quitedifficult to decide between them.  (4) also plays an important role.  (2) is a piss poor justification of inequality.

Also, the study does cannot encompass all of the ways that wealth inequality negatively impacts the poor.  Studies like that (few and number and incomplete as they are) make good intellectual ammunition and food for thought, but do little to justify world views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.  That study provides an explication of the benefit to the wealthy that I discuss in (2) in my last post.  To me at least however, that study&#8217;s conclusion (even if correct) seems a pretty poor argument for asking the relatively poor to just get over it, as per your Coasian hypothesis.  There&#8217;s a big difference between their jealously sensing that we value them less (placing such emphasis on wealth as we do culturally) and their envying the income of others.</p>
<p>If I were ranking those possible reasons, I would say that (1) and (3) are by far the most plausible and that its quitedifficult to decide between them.  (4) also plays an important role.  (2) is a piss poor justification of inequality.</p>
<p>Also, the study does cannot encompass all of the ways that wealth inequality negatively impacts the poor.  Studies like that (few and number and incomplete as they are) make good intellectual ammunition and food for thought, but do little to justify world views.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6235</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6235</guid>
		<description>Bill, The study I mentioned a while back showed that , in the US, income inequality had a negative effect on the happiness of the wealthy, but not the poor. It effects THEIR status security. Because they, like the poor, believe in the a high level of income mobility, they worry they&#039;ll move down. The extent of inequality shows just how much they&#039;ve got to lose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, The study I mentioned a while back showed that , in the US, income inequality had a negative effect on the happiness of the wealthy, but not the poor. It effects THEIR status security. Because they, like the poor, believe in the a high level of income mobility, they worry they&#8217;ll move down. The extent of inequality shows just how much they&#8217;ve got to lose.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Korner</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/07/26/layard-bait-and-switch/#comment-6234</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Korner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=772#comment-6234</guid>
		<description>And why should we believe that the least [social, utility] cost avoider is the low income person with the &quot;inferiority complex&quot;?

(To his credit, Will just says that this is a possibility.  Of course it is THAT.)

Possible reasons:

(1) Wealth inequalities are endemic in any highly productive economy.  We could find no way to equalize wealth without ruining the economy, thus costing the low/middle income people so much consumption-possibility that it&#039;s better for them just to deal with their wealth-inferiority complexes.

(2) High wealth people get so much benefit from being such that redistributing their wealth to the less wealthy would have overall costs to average utility.

(3) High wealth people have so much political power, that it would cost more to organize a way of redistributing their wealth than the benefit to the redistributees.

(4) Most everybody accept for the REAL LOSERS thrives on &quot;the rat race&quot; and a more egalitarian arrangement would plunge everyone into existential dread... a utility crusher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And why should we believe that the least [social, utility] cost avoider is the low income person with the &#8220;inferiority complex&#8221;?</p>
<p>(To his credit, Will just says that this is a possibility.  Of course it is THAT.)</p>
<p>Possible reasons:</p>
<p>(1) Wealth inequalities are endemic in any highly productive economy.  We could find no way to equalize wealth without ruining the economy, thus costing the low/middle income people so much consumption-possibility that it&#8217;s better for them just to deal with their wealth-inferiority complexes.</p>
<p>(2) High wealth people get so much benefit from being such that redistributing their wealth to the less wealthy would have overall costs to average utility.</p>
<p>(3) High wealth people have so much political power, that it would cost more to organize a way of redistributing their wealth than the benefit to the redistributees.</p>
<p>(4) Most everybody accept for the REAL LOSERS thrives on &#8220;the rat race&#8221; and a more egalitarian arrangement would plunge everyone into existential dread&#8230; a utility crusher.</p>
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