Comments on: Democracy and Deception http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/ The Sweet Release of Reason Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000 hourly 1 By: Matt McIntosh http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4951 Matt McIntosh Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:48:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4951 Robert: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/nerolsnilloc/library/tytler.html" rel="nofollow">the Tyler quote is spurious</a>. (Just one of those little things that drives me nuts...) Robert: the Tyler quote is spurious. (Just one of those little things that drives me nuts…)

]]> By: Mike http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4950 Mike Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:03:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4950 Yglesias-- You are evading the issue. You missed the possability where there is a change in public opinion and there is a not so generous means tested benefit or perhaps any benefit at all. In these cases, Baker would probably not say "oh well, thats democracy". So the attitude still comes off as disingenuous. Yglesias–

You are evading the issue. You missed the possability where there is a change in public opinion and there is a not so generous means tested benefit or perhaps any benefit at all. In these cases, Baker would probably not say “oh well, thats democracy”. So the attitude still comes off as disingenuous.

]]> By: monkyboy http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4949 monkyboy Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:12:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4949 I think people who "care about democracy" should be disturbed that all it takes for corporations to get bills passed that would never be approved by a vote of the people is to slip Tom Delay and his cronies a few bucks. And Will, your arguments about SS in the above post are borderline lies. A worker entering the workforce in 1935 had about a 60% chance of living to 65 and retiring. People who hit 65 back then were expected to live about 13 years. The life expectancy of someone 65 today is about 16 years. Let the fight to loot Social Security go...it's over. Maybe you should switch to arguing that drilling right to the Arctic Reserve should be given to Republican supporting companies for nothing because it's the moral thing to do. Who owns the drilling rights now I wonder??? I think people who “care about democracy” should be disturbed that all it takes for corporations to get bills passed that would never be approved by a vote of the people is to slip Tom Delay and his cronies a few bucks.

And Will, your arguments about SS in the above post are borderline lies. A worker entering the workforce in 1935 had about a 60% chance of living to 65 and retiring. People who hit 65 back then were expected to live about 13 years. The life expectancy of someone 65 today is about 16 years.

Let the fight to loot Social Security go…it’s over. Maybe you should switch to arguing that drilling right to the Arctic Reserve should be given to Republican supporting companies for nothing because it’s the moral thing to do.

Who owns the drilling rights now I wonder???

]]> By: Robert http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4948 Robert Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:58:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4948 The milieu of welfare in general and SS in particular, illustrates the fatal flaw of democracy. Although the “d” word has been used to describe our system for some decades now, the Founders wanted no part of it. It’s the old joke about one sheep and two wolves voting on tonight’s meal. The following quote says it best: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." [Alexander Tyler] The milieu of welfare in general and SS in particular, illustrates the fatal flaw of democracy. Although the “d” word has been used to describe our system for some decades now, the Founders wanted no part of it. It’s the old joke about one sheep and two wolves voting on tonight’s meal. The following quote says it best:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.” [Alexander Tyler]

]]> By: Matthew Yglesias http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4947 Matthew Yglesias Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:51:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4947 I think you're sort of missing the point about how these two things that annoy you go together. Dean Baker (or so I'm guessing) doesn't have a strong ideological commitment to Social Security, as such. Rather, he has a strong ideological commitment to Social Security's guarantee of relatively generous benefits to poor retirees, disabled people, and orphans. He also believes (à la Sawicky) that the only way to secure those objectives in the context of American democracy is to achieve them within the context of the much larger Social Security system. If public opinion underwent some kind of dramatic turnaround and it all of a sudden became the case that voters loved generous, but means-tested, income supports, then Baker's attitude toward Social Security would probably change. There's real deference to public opinion here along with real ideology. I think you’re sort of missing the point about how these two things that annoy you go together. Dean Baker (or so I’m guessing) doesn’t have a strong ideological commitment to Social Security, as such. Rather, he has a strong ideological commitment to Social Security’s guarantee of relatively generous benefits to poor retirees, disabled people, and orphans. He also believes (à la Sawicky) that the only way to secure those objectives in the context of American democracy is to achieve them within the context of the much larger Social Security system.

If public opinion underwent some kind of dramatic turnaround and it all of a sudden became the case that voters loved generous, but means-tested, income supports, then Baker’s attitude toward Social Security would probably change. There’s real deference to public opinion here along with real ideology.

]]> By: Matthew Yglesias http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4941 Matthew Yglesias Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4941 I think you're sort of missing the point about how these two things that annoy you go together. Dean Baker (or so I'm guessing) doesn't have a strong ideological commitment to Social Security, as such. Rather, he has a strong ideological commitment to Social Security's guarantee of relatively generous benefits to poor retirees, disabled people, and orphans. He also believes (à la Sawicky) that the only way to secure those objectives in the context of American democracy is to achieve them within the context of the much larger Social Security system. If public opinion underwent some kind of dramatic turnaround and it all of a sudden became the case that voters loved generous, but means-tested, income supports, then Baker's attitude toward Social Security would probably change. There's real deference to public opinion here along with real ideology. I think you’re sort of missing the point about how these two things that annoy you go together. Dean Baker (or so I’m guessing) doesn’t have a strong ideological commitment to Social Security, as such. Rather, he has a strong ideological commitment to Social Security’s guarantee of relatively generous benefits to poor retirees, disabled people, and orphans. He also believes (à la Sawicky) that the only way to secure those objectives in the context of American democracy is to achieve them within the context of the much larger Social Security system.

If public opinion underwent some kind of dramatic turnaround and it all of a sudden became the case that voters loved generous, but means-tested, income supports, then Baker’s attitude toward Social Security would probably change. There’s real deference to public opinion here along with real ideology.

]]> By: Robert http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4942 Robert Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4942 The milieu of welfare in general and SS in particular, illustrates the fatal flaw of democracy. Although the “d” word has been used to describe our system for some decades now, the Founders wanted no part of it. It’s the old joke about one sheep and two wolves voting on tonight’s meal. The following quote says it best: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." [Alexander Tyler] The milieu of welfare in general and SS in particular, illustrates the fatal flaw of democracy. Although the “d” word has been used to describe our system for some decades now, the Founders wanted no part of it. It’s the old joke about one sheep and two wolves voting on tonight’s meal. The following quote says it best:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.” [Alexander Tyler]

]]> By: monkyboy http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4943 monkyboy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4943 I think people who "care about democracy" should be disturbed that all it takes for corporations to get bills passed that would never be approved by a vote of the people is to slip Tom Delay and his cronies a few bucks. And Will, your arguments about SS in the above post are borderline lies. A worker entering the workforce in 1935 had about a 60% chance of living to 65 and retiring. People who hit 65 back then were expected to live about 13 years. The life expectancy of someone 65 today is about 16 years. Let the fight to loot Social Security go...it's over. Maybe you should switch to arguing that drilling right to the Arctic Reserve should be given to Republican supporting companies for nothing because it's the moral thing to do. Who owns the drilling rights now I wonder??? I think people who “care about democracy” should be disturbed that all it takes for corporations to get bills passed that would never be approved by a vote of the people is to slip Tom Delay and his cronies a few bucks.

And Will, your arguments about SS in the above post are borderline lies. A worker entering the workforce in 1935 had about a 60% chance of living to 65 and retiring. People who hit 65 back then were expected to live about 13 years. The life expectancy of someone 65 today is about 16 years.

Let the fight to loot Social Security go…it’s over. Maybe you should switch to arguing that drilling right to the Arctic Reserve should be given to Republican supporting companies for nothing because it’s the moral thing to do.

Who owns the drilling rights now I wonder???

]]> By: Mike http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4944 Mike Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4944 Yglesias-- You are evading the issue. You missed the possability where there is a change in public opinion and there is a not so generous means tested benefit or perhaps any benefit at all. In these cases, Baker would probably not say "oh well, thats democracy". So the attitude still comes off as disingenuous. Yglesias–

You are evading the issue. You missed the possability where there is a change in public opinion and there is a not so generous means tested benefit or perhaps any benefit at all. In these cases, Baker would probably not say “oh well, thats democracy”. So the attitude still comes off as disingenuous.

]]> By: Matt McIntosh http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4945 Matt McIntosh Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4945 Robert: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/nerolsnilloc/library/tytler.html" rel="nofollow">the Tyler quote is spurious</a>. (Just one of those little things that drives me nuts...) Robert: the Tyler quote is spurious. (Just one of those little things that drives me nuts…)

]]> By: Internet Commentator http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/03/17/democracy-and-deception/#comment-4946 Internet Commentator Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=670#comment-4946 <strong>Exit and Voice</strong> Great post by Jonathan Wilde which picks up on a (throwaway?) Insta-pinion on public schooling. Glenn Reynold's remark is depressingly familiar and regularly aired in relation to education, public healthcare and, defending deception, social "insurance"... Exit and Voice

Great post by Jonathan Wilde which picks up on a (throwaway?) Insta-pinion on public schooling. Glenn Reynold’s remark is depressingly familiar and regularly aired in relation to education, public healthcare and, defending deception, social “insurance”…

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