Comments on: Questioning Layard http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/ The Sweet Release of Reason Tue, 22 May 2012 20:28:45 +0000 hourly 1 By: dearieme http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4488 dearieme Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:33:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4488 Beer-lovers would rather pursue hoppiness. Beer-lovers would rather pursue hoppiness.

]]> By: Gareth http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4487 Gareth Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:34:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4487 Let me try (hand raised from front of class, ignoring eyerolling from cool kids): 1. Scientific question: We measure well-being by asking people how they are feeling. Or maybe we visit them on their death beds and inquire whether they had a full life. Neither is perfect, but they both probably give different results than seeing if they are getting what they want. 2. Political question: What Rob said. My longer version would be imagine we are disembodied undergraduates in the Original Position. We are given a choice between a society where everyone is happy and a society where everyone gets what they want. I can't say I know what would happen, but if it was immediate unanimous agreement that the society where everyone gets what they want is better than I would suspect the OP bull session had been salted with Cato interns. Let me try (hand raised from front of class, ignoring eyerolling from cool kids):

1. Scientific question: We measure well-being by asking people how they are feeling. Or maybe we visit them on their death beds and inquire whether they had a full life. Neither is perfect, but they both probably give different results than seeing if they are getting what they want.

2. Political question: What Rob said. My longer version would be imagine we are disembodied undergraduates in the Original Position. We are given a choice between a society where everyone is happy and a society where everyone gets what they want. I can’t say I know what would happen, but if it was immediate unanimous agreement that the society where everyone gets what they want is better than I would suspect the OP bull session had been salted with Cato interns.

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4486 Will Wilkinson Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:51:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4486 Rob, Well I meant the question as a devil's advocate position. I don't buy into all the assumptions of the questions. Rob, Well I meant the question as a devil’s advocate position. I don’t buy into all the assumptions of the questions.

]]> By: Rob http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4485 Rob Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:01:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4485 Isn't part of the problem that using revealed preferences is taking sides in "in hotly contested arguments about the metaphysics of value", and a particularly unpopular side as well? As for the political point, people disagree about justice, yet we still enforce that. What's the difference? I mean both of these as devil's advocate positions, rather than disagreeing. Isn’t part of the problem that using revealed preferences is taking sides in “in hotly contested arguments about the metaphysics of value”, and a particularly unpopular side as well?

As for the political point, people disagree about justice, yet we still enforce that. What’s the difference?

I mean both of these as devil’s advocate positions, rather than disagreeing.

]]> By: Nicholas Weininger http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4484 Nicholas Weininger Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:59:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4484 Javier, I'm not Will, but my answer would be something like this. Obviously there are times when people act against their true interests. But to judge when any particular person is doing so, you need a lot of very specific local knowledge about who that person is and what they have striven for in the past: that is, you need to be intimately close to them. Parents, siblings, and close friends have some skill at recognizing myopic behavior, though even they are very error-prone. Large impersonal agencies are hopelessly bad at it. So, even if revealed preference theory is false at a low level, any large impersonal agency ought to act as if it were true, because such an agency cannot know any better. Javier, I’m not Will, but my answer would be something like this. Obviously there are times when people act against their true interests. But to judge when any particular person is doing so, you need a lot of very specific local knowledge about who that person is and what they have striven for in the past: that is, you need to be intimately close to them. Parents, siblings, and close friends have some skill at recognizing myopic behavior, though even they are very error-prone. Large impersonal agencies are hopelessly bad at it.

So, even if revealed preference theory is false at a low level, any large impersonal agency ought to act as if it were true, because such an agency cannot know any better.

]]> By: Javier Hidalgo http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4483 Javier Hidalgo Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:15:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4483 My question is: if the theory of revealed preferences is true, how are we to judge when a person is behaving myopically or acting against his/her true interests? My question is: if the theory of revealed preferences is true, how are we to judge when a person is behaving myopically or acting against his/her true interests?

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4482 McClain Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:52:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4482 I wish! No, it's just in the Declaration. Close, but not enough to justify case law.... I wish!
No, it’s just in the Declaration.
Close, but not enough to justify case law….

]]> By: monkyboy http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4481 monkyboy Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:40:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4481 Good points, McClain. These broad questions always seem less...something than specific questions. What area of happiness are we talking about? Drug use, polygamy and speed limit laws curtail people's fun in the name of some religious or public safety grounds. It seems like it's easier to pass laws that limit happiness than it is to overturn them. Isn't the right to pursue happiness in the constitution? Good points, McClain.

These broad questions always seem less…something than specific questions.

What area of happiness are we talking about? Drug use, polygamy and speed limit laws curtail people’s fun in the name of some religious or public safety grounds. It seems like it’s easier to pass laws that limit happiness than it is to overturn them.

Isn’t the right to pursue happiness in the constitution?

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4480 McClain Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:12:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4480 P.S. That was me, McClain, talking all that trash just now. Don't know why my name didn't show up.... P.S. That was me, McClain, talking all that trash just now. Don’t know why my name didn’t show up….

]]> By: Anonymous http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4479 Anonymous Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:04:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4479 When you have time to write stuff down, and think about it first, and second guess it, and re-write it...well...that's different from when you're standing in front of a not-necessarily-friendly audience, sweating in your suit under the lights, probably getting filmed (or at least tape-recorded,) and making up answers on the spot for whatever not-so-friendly questions get thrown at you. Don't get me wrong: I think it's a great, zen-samurai, adversarial tradition. But taking a *well-thought-out* question and comparing it to an *off-the-cuff* answer is kinda 'apples'n'oranges,' innit? What do you think your ol' pal Rawls would say about that? (Well, gee...if we pretend we're all gonna find ourselves in one spot or the other, how many of us would rather play the questioner? All of us? Right. Therefore....) That said.... We could argue about the definition of "happiness, people's pursuit thereof." Or we could skip all that definitional crap, and argue about whether it's possible to do science or politics without passing judgment on anything. After we agree it's not, we could argue about whether taking sides in scientific and political disputes is a necessary exercise of judgment, or (because ones interlocutor is on the other side) a display of poor judgment. Eh, that's about all I got on this one. Cheers! :-) When you have time to write stuff down, and think about it first, and second guess it, and re-write it…well…that’s different from when you’re standing in front of a not-necessarily-friendly audience, sweating in your suit under the lights, probably getting filmed (or at least tape-recorded,) and making up answers on the spot for whatever not-so-friendly questions get thrown at you.
Don’t get me wrong: I think it’s a great, zen-samurai, adversarial tradition.
But taking a *well-thought-out* question and comparing it to an *off-the-cuff* answer is kinda ‘apples’n'oranges,’ innit?
What do you think your ol’ pal Rawls would say about that? (Well, gee…if we pretend we’re all gonna find ourselves in one spot or the other, how many of us would rather play the questioner? All of us? Right. Therefore….)
That said….
We could argue about the definition of “happiness, people’s pursuit thereof.”
Or we could skip all that definitional crap, and argue about whether it’s possible to do science or politics without passing judgment on anything.
After we agree it’s not, we could argue about whether taking sides in scientific and political disputes is a necessary exercise of judgment, or (because ones interlocutor is on the other side) a display of poor judgment.
Eh, that’s about all I got on this one.
Cheers! :-)

]]> By: Anonymous http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4468 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4468 When you have time to write stuff down, and think about it first, and second guess it, and re-write it...well...that's different from when you're standing in front of a not-necessarily-friendly audience, sweating in your suit under the lights, probably getting filmed (or at least tape-recorded,) and making up answers on the spot for whatever not-so-friendly questions get thrown at you. Don't get me wrong: I think it's a great, zen-samurai, adversarial tradition. But taking a *well-thought-out* question and comparing it to an *off-the-cuff* answer is kinda 'apples'n'oranges,' innit? What do you think your ol' pal Rawls would say about that? (Well, gee...if we pretend we're all gonna find ourselves in one spot or the other, how many of us would rather play the questioner? All of us? Right. Therefore....) That said.... We could argue about the definition of "happiness, people's pursuit thereof." Or we could skip all that definitional crap, and argue about whether it's possible to do science or politics without passing judgment on anything. After we agree it's not, we could argue about whether taking sides in scientific and political disputes is a necessary exercise of judgment, or (because ones interlocutor is on the other side) a display of poor judgment. Eh, that's about all I got on this one. Cheers! :-) When you have time to write stuff down, and think about it first, and second guess it, and re-write it…well…that’s different from when you’re standing in front of a not-necessarily-friendly audience, sweating in your suit under the lights, probably getting filmed (or at least tape-recorded,) and making up answers on the spot for whatever not-so-friendly questions get thrown at you.
Don’t get me wrong: I think it’s a great, zen-samurai, adversarial tradition.
But taking a *well-thought-out* question and comparing it to an *off-the-cuff* answer is kinda ‘apples’n'oranges,’ innit?
What do you think your ol’ pal Rawls would say about that? (Well, gee…if we pretend we’re all gonna find ourselves in one spot or the other, how many of us would rather play the questioner? All of us? Right. Therefore….)
That said….
We could argue about the definition of “happiness, people’s pursuit thereof.”
Or we could skip all that definitional crap, and argue about whether it’s possible to do science or politics without passing judgment on anything.
After we agree it’s not, we could argue about whether taking sides in scientific and political disputes is a necessary exercise of judgment, or (because ones interlocutor is on the other side) a display of poor judgment.
Eh, that’s about all I got on this one.
Cheers! :-)

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4469 McClain Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4469 P.S. That was me, McClain, talking all that trash just now. Don't know why my name didn't show up.... P.S. That was me, McClain, talking all that trash just now. Don’t know why my name didn’t show up….

]]> By: monkyboy http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4470 monkyboy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4470 Good points, McClain. These broad questions always seem less...something than specific questions. What area of happiness are we talking about? Drug use, polygamy and speed limit laws curtail people's fun in the name of some religious or public safety grounds. It seems like it's easier to pass laws that limit happiness than it is to overturn them. Isn't the right to pursue happiness in the constitution? Good points, McClain.

These broad questions always seem less…something than specific questions.

What area of happiness are we talking about? Drug use, polygamy and speed limit laws curtail people’s fun in the name of some religious or public safety grounds. It seems like it’s easier to pass laws that limit happiness than it is to overturn them.

Isn’t the right to pursue happiness in the constitution?

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4471 McClain Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4471 I wish! No, it's just in the Declaration. Close, but not enough to justify case law.... I wish!
No, it’s just in the Declaration.
Close, but not enough to justify case law….

]]> By: Javier Hidalgo http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2005/02/15/questioning-layard/#comment-4472 Javier Hidalgo Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=650#comment-4472 My question is: if the theory of revealed preferences is true, how are we to judge when a person is behaving myopically or acting against his/her true interests? My question is: if the theory of revealed preferences is true, how are we to judge when a person is behaving myopically or acting against his/her true interests?

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