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	<title>Comments on: The Illusory Aura of Ivy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/</link>
	<description>The Sweet Release of Reason</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:11:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: random guy</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3099</link>
		<dc:creator>random guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3099</guid>
		<description>you guys aren&#039;t nearly as smart as you think you are...your writing sucks, too...you throw in GRE vocab words at the expense of clarity...your writing is impenetrable...it is a butchering of the English language...clarity, first...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you guys aren&#8217;t nearly as smart as you think you are&#8230;your writing sucks, too&#8230;you throw in GRE vocab words at the expense of clarity&#8230;your writing is impenetrable&#8230;it is a butchering of the English language&#8230;clarity, first&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Marie</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3098</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3098</guid>
		<description>Hi Chuck!

No empirical study is ever dispositive.  However, this one is qualitatively different from previous work in that it employs fixed effects to neutralize unobserved differences in student ability.  You are pointing to the older version of the study, BTW.  A far more comprehensive and influential paper is available in the Quarterly Journal of Economics in 2002, and is available on JSTOR.  It responds to comments made about the earlier paper and demonstrates that the findings are robust to the NLS database as well as College and Beyond.

I&#039;ll be happy to chat with you about this sometime!  My paper has moved slowly through the publication pipeline, but should finally come out in the next few weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chuck!</p>
<p>No empirical study is ever dispositive.  However, this one is qualitatively different from previous work in that it employs fixed effects to neutralize unobserved differences in student ability.  You are pointing to the older version of the study, BTW.  A far more comprehensive and influential paper is available in the Quarterly Journal of Economics in 2002, and is available on JSTOR.  It responds to comments made about the earlier paper and demonstrates that the findings are robust to the NLS database as well as College and Beyond.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be happy to chat with you about this sometime!  My paper has moved slowly through the publication pipeline, but should finally come out in the next few weeks.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3097</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3097</guid>
		<description>Vanishingly few people can compete with me in their love for Marie Gryphon.  Nevertheless, I found that conclusion very striking and counterintutive.  So I question it.  Gryphon quotes the Dale &amp; Krueger study as dispositive.  Has there been any criticism of it since it came out in 1999?  Or is their view now widely accepted?

If anyone with an econ background wants to tell me whether the study is any good, they can find it here:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vanishingly few people can compete with me in their love for Marie Gryphon.  Nevertheless, I found that conclusion very striking and counterintutive.  So I question it.  Gryphon quotes the Dale &amp; Krueger study as dispositive.  Has there been any criticism of it since it came out in 1999?  Or is their view now widely accepted?</p>
<p>If anyone with an econ background wants to tell me whether the study is any good, they can find it here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Trojans Baby!</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3096</link>
		<dc:creator>Trojans Baby!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3096</guid>
		<description>This is almost good news for me in that I got into Cornell grad school but chose a less prestigious grad school to attend. Yet it sounds like this study was about undergraduates...

I wonder what would happen if the same kind of study was done with grad school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is almost good news for me in that I got into Cornell grad school but chose a less prestigious grad school to attend. Yet it sounds like this study was about undergraduates&#8230;</p>
<p>I wonder what would happen if the same kind of study was done with grad school.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3095</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3095</guid>
		<description>Jim, That&#039;s what I was going to say. But &#039;hypocrisy&#039; is easier to type.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, That&#8217;s what I was going to say. But &#8216;hypocrisy&#8217; is easier to type.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Henley</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3094</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Henley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3094</guid>
		<description>Marty Peretz doesn&#039;t know any black people, would be explanation one. The secondary explanation would be ideological, I&#039;d think. On racial issues, TNR is at the right of the liberal spectrum. Hostile environment! TAP&#039;s situation presumably falls primarily on the former prong. Since Harvard does have affirmative action it suggests that AA&#039;s ability to usher black students into the sunlit uplands of cronyism is limited, for whatever reason.

I am by no means being merely snarky here. And it occurs to me that the &quot;limits of cronyism&quot; theory may dovetail with the current &quot;over-promotion&quot; meme. To wit: if Harvard admits black students who would do well at UMass but struggle at Harvard, then Marty Peretz&#039;s universe comprises a bunch of white students, some of whom are obvious hotshots, and a smaller number of black ones, most of whom are struggling. Ditto for whoever TAP&#039;s talent-spotters are at our better institutions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marty Peretz doesn&#8217;t know any black people, would be explanation one. The secondary explanation would be ideological, I&#8217;d think. On racial issues, TNR is at the right of the liberal spectrum. Hostile environment! TAP&#8217;s situation presumably falls primarily on the former prong. Since Harvard does have affirmative action it suggests that AA&#8217;s ability to usher black students into the sunlit uplands of cronyism is limited, for whatever reason.</p>
<p>I am by no means being merely snarky here. And it occurs to me that the &#8220;limits of cronyism&#8221; theory may dovetail with the current &#8220;over-promotion&#8221; meme. To wit: if Harvard admits black students who would do well at UMass but struggle at Harvard, then Marty Peretz&#8217;s universe comprises a bunch of white students, some of whom are obvious hotshots, and a smaller number of black ones, most of whom are struggling. Ditto for whoever TAP&#8217;s talent-spotters are at our better institutions.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3093</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3093</guid>
		<description>Hypocrisy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hypocrisy?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Yglesias</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3092</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Yglesias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3092</guid>
		<description>So the question becomes how come none of the writers or editors at TNR (or TAP for that matter) is black?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the question becomes how come none of the writers or editors at TNR (or TAP for that matter) is black?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Yglesias</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3083</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Yglesias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3083</guid>
		<description>So the question becomes how come none of the writers or editors at TNR (or TAP for that matter) is black?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the question becomes how come none of the writers or editors at TNR (or TAP for that matter) is black?</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/12/21/the-illusory-aura-of-ivy/#comment-3084</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=592#comment-3084</guid>
		<description>Hypocrisy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hypocrisy?</p>
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