Comments on: Hawk Logic http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/ The Sweet Release of Reason Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:11:50 +0000 hourly 1 By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1274 McClain Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:06:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1274 Luces - Oops, Godwin's Law: you lose. ;-) Luces -
Oops, Godwin’s Law: you lose. ;-)

]]> By: Luka Yovetich http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1273 Luka Yovetich Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:00:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1273 McClain, It's not enough to be courageous in the face of evil. It's about being courageous in the face of evil when doing so can be expected to bring about more good than bad. Or something like that. And no, people don't have to KNOW the future before they fight evil. But they should be thoughtful about the consequences of their actions and if it seems that fighting evil in a particular situation in a particular way will bring about more harm than good, then they should choose another course. McClain,

It’s not enough to be courageous in the face of evil. It’s about being courageous in the face of evil when doing so can be expected to bring about more good than bad. Or something like that.

And no, people don’t have to KNOW the future before they fight evil. But they should be thoughtful about the consequences of their actions and if it seems that fighting evil in a particular situation in a particular way will bring about more harm than good, then they should choose another course.

]]> By: Luces http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1272 Luces Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:23:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1272 "Though we may not, in this fickle and poorly-lit world, always be sure what results our actions will bring, we may yet be sure, so long as we are overthrowing evil dictators, that soldiering on with sanguine confidence is, at the very worst, an act of courage in the face of evil." But what good is virtue if it promotes evil? Is courage just intriniscally good? If so, how did you learn that? Noetic rays? Revelation from God? C'mon. Go back to the 17th Century! Overthrowing evil dictators is not always right; I submit that NO act-type is ALWAYS right. Rhetoric like yours - rhetoric like is contained in your pompous and diversive anti-moral-mathematics screed - would be good for motivating Germans to pump bodies into furnaces, etc. It isn't good for much else. “Though we may not, in this fickle and poorly-lit world, always be sure what results our actions will bring, we may yet be sure, so long as we are overthrowing evil dictators, that soldiering on with sanguine confidence is, at the very worst, an act of courage in the face of evil.”

But what good is virtue if it promotes evil? Is courage just intriniscally good? If so, how did you learn that? Noetic rays? Revelation from God? C’mon. Go back to the 17th Century! Overthrowing evil dictators is not always right; I submit that NO act-type is ALWAYS right.

Rhetoric like yours – rhetoric like is contained in your pompous and diversive anti-moral-mathematics screed – would be good for motivating Germans to pump bodies into furnaces, etc. It isn’t good for much else.

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1271 McClain Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:43:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1271 Well, Luka, I do believe taking out Saddam has brought about more good than bad. And this good will reverberate into the indefinite future. I’m calling “overthrowing evil dictators is always good” an axiom because: though we may not, in this fickle and poorly-lit world, always be sure what results our actions will bring, we may yet be sure, so long as we are overthrowing evil dictators, that soldiering on with sanguine confidence is, at the very worst, an act of courage in the face of evil. Must Libertarians pretend to know the future before they decide if fighting for Liberty is good? Well, Luka, I do believe taking out Saddam has brought about more good than bad.
And this good will reverberate into the indefinite future.
I’m calling “overthrowing evil dictators is always good” an axiom because: though we may not, in this fickle and poorly-lit world, always be sure what results our actions will bring, we may yet be sure, so long as we are overthrowing evil dictators, that soldiering on with sanguine confidence is, at the very worst, an act of courage in the face of evil.
Must Libertarians pretend to know the future before they decide if fighting for Liberty is good?

]]> By: Luka Yovetich http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1270 Luka Yovetich Tue, 14 Sep 2004 02:19:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1270 McClain, I think Will's point is that there are som imaginable situations where it would be better to not overthrow an evil dictator. Overthrowing a particular dictator is not of infinite value. If we can reasonably expect that taking him out will make matters worse, then we should not take him out. If you think that Iraq was a situation where taking Saddam brought about more good than bad, then just say so. But don't act like it's always okay to take out any evil dictator NO MATTER WHAT. That's just silly. McClain,

I think Will’s point is that there are som imaginable situations where it would be better to not overthrow an evil dictator. Overthrowing a particular dictator is not of infinite value. If we can reasonably expect that taking him out will make matters worse, then we should not take him out.

If you think that Iraq was a situation where taking Saddam brought about more good than bad, then just say so. But don’t act like it’s always okay to take out any evil dictator NO MATTER WHAT. That’s just silly.

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1269 McClain Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:23:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1269 Sorry if that last was a bit cryptic. At length: If Libertarians were debating how best to overthrow evil dictators in accordance with Libertarian principles, and loudly advertising to all'n'sundry how their solutions were more cost-effective and aesthetically pleasing than Bush's methods...that would be cool. But all I hear is (self-proclaimed) "Libertarians" making up excuses for NOT overthrowing evil dictators, and then complaining that Bush (and/or anyone else with more spleen than sense) is going about it all wrong. "What if" taking out 1 tyrant generated 3 more? Gee, I dunno..."what if" taking out 1 tyrant prevented any other tyrants from ever achieving power? Infinity being greater than 3, my fake math problem trumps yours. Therein lies the rub. This ain't no fake math problem. "Overthrowing evil dictators is always good" is an axiom which, in practical affairs, all true friends & partisans of Liberty will gladly embrace. As for Humanity...if I have no moral need nor cognizance of it, what moral need (or cognizance) have I of the proverbial State? You can work out the rest of that Reductio yourself, but you-know-that-I-know-that-you-know it doesn't end well for anyone but Solopsits, Nihilists, Anarchists, and other such Crack-Whores. Sorry if that last was a bit cryptic.

At length:
If Libertarians were debating how best to overthrow evil dictators in accordance with Libertarian principles, and loudly advertising to all’n'sundry how their solutions were more cost-effective and aesthetically pleasing than Bush’s methods…that would be cool.
But all I hear is (self-proclaimed) “Libertarians” making up excuses for NOT overthrowing evil dictators, and then complaining that Bush (and/or anyone else with more spleen than sense) is going about it all wrong.
“What if” taking out 1 tyrant generated 3 more?
Gee, I dunno…”what if” taking out 1 tyrant prevented any other tyrants from ever achieving power? Infinity being greater than 3, my fake math problem trumps yours. Therein lies the rub. This ain’t no fake math problem.
“Overthrowing evil dictators is always good” is an axiom which, in practical affairs, all true friends & partisans of Liberty will gladly embrace.

As for Humanity…if I have no moral need nor cognizance of it, what moral need (or cognizance) have I of the proverbial State?
You can work out the rest of that Reductio yourself, but you-know-that-I-know-that-you-know
it doesn’t end well for anyone but Solopsits, Nihilists, Anarchists, and other such Crack-Whores.

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1268 McClain Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:22:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1268 3 new dictators? This isn't a hypothetical math problem. Life divided by language does not equal math. Individual, State, Humanity: positing 3 nodes on a continuum. Brought it up because: U.S. Libertarians haven't shown any solidarity with Iraqi Libertarians. 3 new dictators? This isn’t a hypothetical math problem. Life divided by language does not equal math.

Individual, State, Humanity: positing 3 nodes on a continuum.
Brought it up because: U.S. Libertarians haven’t shown any solidarity with Iraqi Libertarians.

]]> By: aeon skoble http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1267 aeon skoble Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:04:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1267 Will- Not that I'm a prima donna, but I've replied to you and to other respondents on my blog. It's <a>here</a> (hope I did the html correctly - if not, it's at <a href="http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/7333.html)" rel="nofollow">http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/7333.html)</a> Best, Aeon Will-
Not that I’m a prima donna, but I’ve replied to you and to other respondents on my blog. It’s here (hope I did the html correctly – if not, it’s at http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/7333.html)
Best,
Aeon

]]> By: Will Wilkinson http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1266 Will Wilkinson Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:43:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1266 McClain, Your "right answer" is certainly wrong. Suppose overthrowing an evil dictator had the hydra-like consequence of causing three more evil dictators to pop in his place? Who is this Humanity of which you speak? McClain, Your “right answer” is certainly wrong. Suppose overthrowing an evil dictator had the hydra-like consequence of causing three more evil dictators to pop in his place?

Who is this Humanity of which you speak?

]]> By: McClain http://willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2004/09/10/hawk-logic/#comment-1265 McClain Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:00 +0000 http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/?p=442#comment-1265 If your philosophy gives the wrong answer, then there's something wrong with your philosophy. "Overthrowing evil dictators is always good" is the right answer. "Overthrowing evil dictators is sometimes bad" is the answer your philosophy gave. Where did it go wrong? I don't know, nor do I much care, but I suspect some sort of shell game whereby the Individual gets all the rights & no responsibilities, the State has all the responsibilities & no rights, and Humanity is left holding the bag, with neither rights nor responsibilities. If your philosophy gives the wrong answer, then there’s something wrong with your philosophy.
“Overthrowing evil dictators is always good” is the right answer.
“Overthrowing evil dictators is sometimes bad” is the answer your philosophy gave. Where did it go wrong?
I don’t know, nor do I much care, but I suspect some sort of shell game whereby the Individual gets all the rights & no responsibilities, the State has all the responsibilities & no rights, and Humanity is left holding the bag, with neither rights nor responsibilities.

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